««« Chapter 86 »»» Using Words, Qin Mi Overcomes Zhang Wen; Setting Fire, Xu Sheng Defeats Cao Pi.

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1 After his recent exploits, Lu Xun became the one hero of Wu. He was given the title General Who Upholds the State, was ennobled as Lord of Jiangling, and received the Governorship of Jingzhou. He became Supreme Commander of all the military forces.
2 Zhang Zhao and Gu Yong, thinking the moment opportune for enhancing their lord's dignity, sent in a memorial proposing that his rule should be designated by a distinctive style, and Sun Quan assumed “Yellow Might Era” as his reign style (AD 222).
3 Then arrived a messenger from Wei, and he was called in to an assembly and bidden to state his business.
4 The messenger said, "Recently Shu sent to Wei for help, and, the situation being misunderstood, the Ruler of Wei dispatched a force against Wu. Now this action is greatly regretted. In Wei it is thought desirable to set four armies in motion against Shu to capture it. Now if Wu will assist, and success crowns these efforts, Wei and Wu will share the conquered territory."
5 Sun Quan listened, but was not prepared to give a decided answer. He betook himself to his counselors, Zhang Zhao and Gu Yong.
6 They said, "Lu Xun is the man of profound knowledge. He should be consulted."	» Chibichan -- Wow -- Oh, so now after defeating Shu's massive onslaught and causing Liu Bei to die from depression, NOW the advisors say 'he's the man'. Guess Lu Xun came home to some shocked people, eh?
7 So Lu Xun was called, and his speech ran thus: "Cao Pi is too firmly established in the Middle Land to be upset now; and if this offer of his be refused, we shall provoke his enmity. Neither Wei nor Wu, so far as I see, has anyone fit to oppose Zhuge Liang. We must perforce consent and put our army in order. But we can wait till we see how the four armies speed. If Shu seems likely to fall and Zhuge Liang is outmaneuvered, then our army can be dispatched and we will take Capital Chengdu. If the four armies fail, we shall have to consider."	» cFodder -- hehe, somewhere, Zhuge Liang is laughing as Lu Xun says this...
8 So Sun Quan said to the envoy of Wei, "We are not ready at the moment, so we will choose a day to start later."
9 And with this answer the envoy left.
10 Next they made careful inquiries about the success or failure of the four armies against Shu.
11 The spies reported: "The western Qiangs under King Kebi Neng have turned back when they saw Ma Chao in command at Xiping Pass. The southern Mangs led by Meng Huo have been perplexed at the tactics of Wei Yan and have retreated to their territories. The Shangyong leader, Meng Da, have set out, but half way have fallen ill and gone back. And Cao Zhen's army, while marching toward Yangping Pass, have been brought to a halt by the defensive preparations of Zhao Zilong, who has garrisoned every pass and occupied every point of vantage; they have eventually retreated, after being camped in the Xie Valley for some time."
12 Knowing all this, Sun Quan said to his officials, "Lu Xun's words were indeed prophetic; he made most perfect deductions. Any rash action on my part would place me on bad terms with Shu."
13 Just then the coming of an envoy from Shu was announced.
14 Said Zhang Zhao, "This mission is also part of Zhuge Liang's scheme to divert danger from Shu. Deng Zhi has come as envoy."
15 "That being so, how should I reply?" asked Sun Quan.
16 "I will tell you. Set up a large cauldron and pour therein a quantity of oil. Light a fire beneath. When the oil is boiling, choose a goodly company of your tallest and brawniest fighting guards, arm them and draw them up in lines between the Palace gate and your throne room. Then summon Deng Zhi. But before he can say a word, forewarn him that he will have the same fate of being boiled in oil if being guilty of the same sort of treachery as Li Yiji when he was a persuader to the state of Qi. Then see what Deng Zhi will say."	» Explainer -- Li Yiji -- Li Yiji was diplomat and adviser of Liu Bang. Li Yiji went on mission to discuss peace between Liu Bang and King Tian Guang of Qi. Li Yiji demanded a ceasefire as condition for talk. Tian Guang complied. While the discussion was going on, Liu Bang attacked. Tian Guang enraged and threw Li Yiji into boiling oil.
17 Sun Quan followed this advice, and prepared the cauldron of oil and had the strong guards ready. Then he bade them introduce the envoy.
18 Deng Zhi came, his ceremonial dress in perfect order, and advanced as far as the gate. Seeing the grim array of fighting men armed, some with gleaming swords, some with great axes, some with long spears, and some with short knives, he understood at once what was meant, but he never blenched. He advanced quite steadily and bravely till he reached the door of the hall. Even when he saw the boiling cauldron of oil and the savage executioners glaring at him, he only smiled.
19 He was led to the front of the curtain behind which sat the Prince of Wu, and he made the ordinary salutation of raising his extended arms, but he did not bow in obeisance.
20 The Prince bade his attendants roll up the curtain, and called out, "Why do you not make an obeisance?"
21 Deng Zhi replied, "The envoy of the superior state does not make an obeisance to the ruler of a smaller country."
22 "If you do not control that tongue of yours, but will let it wag, you will be like that fellow Li Yiji who went to talk to Qi. You will soon find yourself in the cauldron."
23 Then Deng Zhi laughed aloud, saying, "People say there are many sages in Wu. No one would believe that they would be frightened of a simple scholar."
24 This reply only increased Sun Quan's anger, and he said, "Who fears an unmerited fool like you?"
25 "If you fear not the envoy, why so anxious about what he may have to say?"
26 "Because you come here as spokesman of Zhuge Liang, and you want me to sever with Wei and turn to your country. Is not that your message?"
27 "I am a simple scholar of Shu, and I am come to explain matters to the state of Wu. But here I find armed guards and a boiling cauldron all prepared against an envoy. How can I form any other opinion than that you will not allow me to speak?"
28 As soon as Sun Quan heard these words, he bade the soldiers go, and called the envoy into the hall.	» Seraph -- Sun Quan says -- Alright, he just destroyed that idea. Maybe I should just talk instead...
29 There he invited Deng Zhi to a seat and said, "What is the real matter between Wei and Wu? I desire that you would inform me."
30 Then Deng Zhi replied, "Do you, great Prince, desire to discuss peace with Wei or with Shu?"
31 "I really desire to discuss peace with the Ruler of Shu. But he is young and inexperienced and ignorant, and unable to carry a matter through."
32 "Prince, you are a valiant warrior, just as Zhuge Liang is a great minister. Now Shu has the strength of its mountainous geography just as Wu has the protection of its three rivers. If these two countries are at peace, they are mutually protective. They may swallow up the rest of the empire, or they may stand secure alone. If you send tribute to Wei and acknowledge yourself one of its ministers, you will be expected to attend at court, and your heir-apparent will become a servant in that court; and if you disobey, an army of Wei will be sent to attack you. Shu also will come down the river and invade your country. Then the South Land will be yours no longer. And if you listen not to these words of mine, and refuse my offer, I shall commit suicide before you to prove I am not persuading you only for our own benefit."	» Ledrug -- A better translation by Ledrug.
33 As Deng Zhi spoke these last words, he gathered up his robes and marched down the hall as though he was just going to jump into the cauldron.
34 "Stop him!" cried Sun Quan, and they did so.	» Seraph -- That changed quickly -- First Quan was threataning to throw him into the water, but now he's trying to stop him from throwing himself in. I think the diplomat has control of the Prince right now...
35 Then he requested Deng Zhi to go into an inner apartment, where he treated the envoy as a guest of the highest honor.
36 "O Master," said Sun Quan, "your words exactly express my thoughts, and I desire to make a league of peace with your country. Are you willing to be the intermediary?"	» Super Dian Wei -- I believe it. Sun Quan wanted peace from the beginning. -- He sent the betrayers of Zhang Fei to Shu just to avoid war. Now that the offer has risen, he should be wetting himself with glee. » Mythos -- Ambition -- Sun Quan lacked any real ambition. He simply desired peace with those around him. The only instances in which he took action was when an advisor talked him into it. » GongsunZanlives -- Super Dian Wei, you are right. -- i mean would you give up about half your territory and the betrayers of your enemy just for peace? i wouldnt. plus Liu Bei was a pansy lately: Refusing Jing and his brothers killers. he deserved to die » Seraph -- On the other hand he was also on the verge of breaking Wu's forces... -- which would have resulted in the acquisition of all of Wu, no small feat. He also would have gotten the men he felt were responsible for his brother's death, i.e. Wu's strategists and of course Quan himself. So Liu Bei could have been both tactically and personally justified in his refusal. As for the original statement, Quan really was commited to peace. I don't think he lacked ambition (he actually invaded Wei more than Shu did!), but he cared very much for peace in his land. And he should be "wetting himself with glee" as SDW said. He now has the military power on his flank with him, which means he can concentrate on defending his Wei border which already is protected by a big river. Not a bad deal for Shu or Wu. I think Zhuge Liang actually got the better part of the deal. Sure, Quan could now devote all his forces towards Wei, but he never really does anything very significant. Zhuge Liang, however, now has a free hand to do whatever he wants to do militarily without worrying about Wu. Definately a good deal for Shu as well.
37 "Just now it was you, O Prince, who wished to boil this poor servant. Now it is also you who wishes to use him. How can such a doubtful person be trusted?"
38 "My mind is made up," replied Sun Quan. "Do not doubt me, Master."	» darkknight -- Deng Zhi is making Sun Quan look like a little dog.
39 Deng Zhi was detained, and a conclave of officers gathered.
40 Said Sun Quan to the assembly, "Under my hand are all eighty-one counties of the southeast, and I have the lands of Jingzhou to boot, yet I am not so well off as that little country of Shu, for Shu has Deng Zhi for an envoy, and he glorifies his lord. I have no one to send to declare my wishes to Shu."
41 Then one stepped forth and said he would go. The speaker was Zhang Wen of Wucheng, who held the office of Imperial Commander.	» WUuuu -- Lu Xun is in the background smashing his head into a wall... -- "Why oh why am I in Wu... maybe the Caos are hiring!" » Chibichan -- LOL -- The guy just spared Wu from a horrible fate, yet still, should they not rely on his words?
42 "Sir, I fear that when you reach Shu and are in the presence of Zhuge Liang, you will not explain my real sentiments," said Sun Quan.
43 Zhang Wen replied, "Think you that I shall fear him? He also is but a man."
44 Sun Quan conferred great gifts on Zhang Wen, and sent him on the return mission to Shu to negotiate the league of peace.
45 While Deng Zhi was absent, Zhuge Liang said to his lord, "This mission to Wu will succeed, and of the many wise people in the east one will come as return envoy. Your Majesty should treat him with courtesy, and let him return to Wu to complete the league. For if we have an alliance with Wu, Wei will not dare to send an army against us. And if we are safe from those quarters, I will lead an expedition to subdue the Mangs in the south country. After that we can deal with Wei. If Wei is reduced, Wu will not last long, and the whole empire will again be under one ruler."
46 Presently the report reached the capital that Deng Zhi and Zhang Wen, as envoy of Wu, would soon arrive. The Latter Ruler assembled the courtiers to receive them honorably. The envoy of Wu carried himself as one who had attained his desires, and advanced boldly. Having made his salute, the Latter Ruler gave him to sit on a brocaded stool on his left hand. A banquet followed at which Zhang Wen was treated with much honor. At the end of the banquet, the whole court escorted the envoy to the guest-house where he was to lodge.
47 On the second day there was a banquet at the Prime Minister's palace, and Zhuge Liang broached the real business.
48 He said, "Our First Ruler was not on friendly terms with Wu. But that is all changed, as is demonstrated by these banquets, and our present Emperor is disposed to be very friendly. It is hoped that the former enmity may be entirely forgotten and the two countries swear eternal friendship and alliance in their common end---the destruction of Wei. I look to you, Sir, to speak in favor of this league."
49 Zhang Wen said that he would support the plan. The wine went merrily round, and as the envoy became mellow, he laughed freely and swaggered and put on a proud demeanor.
50 Next day the Latter Ruler gave Zhang Wen rich presents of gold and studs and prepared a parting banquet for him in the south guest-chamber, and all the court assembled to take leave of him. The Prime Minister paid him assiduous attention and pressed him to drink. While this banquet was in progress, a man suddenly came in as if he were already drunk, made a proud sort of salutation to the company and at once took a seat.
51 His conduct seemed strange to Zhang Wen, who asked, "Who is the new comer, Sir Prime Minister?"
52 "He is a man named Qin Mi, a Doctorate Academician of Yizhou," replied Zhuge Liang.
53 "He may be that," said Zhang Wen with a laugh, "but I wonder if he has any learning at all inside him."
54 Qin Mi listened without changing countenance, and said, "Since our children are all learned, of course I am more so."
55 "What may have been your special studies, Sir?" said Zhang Wen.
56 "Many things: Astronomy on one hand, geography on the other, the three teachings and the nine systems, many philosophers, history all through, and many sacred books and traditions."
57 "Since you talk so big," said Zhang Wen, "I should like to ask you a few questions on celestial matters. Now has the sky a head?"
58 "Yes, it has a head."
59 "Where is it?"
60 "In the western quarter. The Odes say, 'God turns his head kindly toward the west,' and further it follows from this that the head is in the west."
61 "Well, has the sky ears?"
62 "Oh, yes. The sky is above and listens to all things below. The Odes say, 'The crane calls from the midst of the marsh, its cry is heard by the sky.' How could the sky hear without ears?"
63 "Has the sky feet?"
64 "It has. The Odes say, 'Heaven treads down difficulties.' If there were no feet, how could it tread?"
65 "Has heaven a name?"
66 "Why not?"
67 "Then what is it?"
68 "Liu."
69 "How do you know that?"
70 "Because the Emperor's family name is Liu, and he is the Son of Heaven. That is how I know."
71 "Does the sun spring from the east?"
72 "Though it does, yet it sets in the west."	» JiaXuAdvocate -- Of all the wise responses, this is the last one, but as easy enough for a three year old to answer -- I'm wondering if this was anti-climactic somewhat, attenuating part of the coming astonishment. "Wow, he knows where the sun sets when I ask him from where it springs." » yingchuan -- U're trapped -- Snickered Zhang wen. Some hints for you, the sun means some brilliant thing, here it can be interpreted as the will of the Heaven (to grant the throne to). the east means Wu and west for Shu as well (Remember East Wu & West Shu) » JiaXuAdvocate -- Wow- I wish I could see things that profoundly without having to really think about it. -- Thank you » yingchuan -- cultures -- It's just a matter of cultures, since you've never heard about the well-known Chinese proverb, "As there's only one sun in the sky/heaven, no second lord for the people would be accepted", it's not a fault not able to see the point. But there IS a clue in the last question, Zhan Wen asked about the Heaven's last name, maybe not intentionally, he would definitely felt unhappy about the answer he got. it's natural the following question will be the counterattack.
73 All this time Qin Mi's repartees had flashed back clear and perfect. They came so naturally as to astonish all the guests. Zhang Wen had no word to reply to them.
74 Then it became Qin Mi's turn, "You are a famous scholar in your own land, Sir; and since you have asked so many questions about Heaven, I take it you are I well up in all celestial matters. When original chaos resolved into its two elements yin and yang, the lighter portion rose and became sky, and the grosser sank and solidified into earth. When Gong Gong's rebellion was crushed, his head struck the Imperfect Mountain, the pillar, which upholds heaven, was broken and the bonds of earth were destroyed. Heaven fell over to the northwest, and earth sank into the southeast. Since heaven was ethereal and had floated to the top, how could it fall over? Another thing I do not know is what is beyond the ether. I should be glad if you would explain, Master."	» Ragnarok -- Gong Gong was a rival to the divine Emperor Fu Xi. (around 5300 BC) » JiaXuAdvocate -- I can picture the Yin and Yang, with the "tadpole heads" representing the focus of the two realms -- So earth, Yin, was the black, and located predominently on the lower right(i.e. southeast), while Yang, heaven, is the white, and located predominently on the upper left (i.e. northwest). And a little bit of both in each other for the eyes of the tadpoles. Am I right?
75 Zhang Wen had no reply ready, but he rose from his place and bowed his acknowledgment, saying, "I knew not that there was so much ability in this land. I am happy to have heard such a discourse. Now all obstructions have disappeared, and I see quite clearly."
76 But Zhuge Liang, fearing lest the guest should feel mortified, soothed him with fair words, saying, "This is all play upon words, the sort of puzzles one propounds at a merry feast. You, honored Sir, know that the tranquillity and safety of states are no matters to joke with."
77 The envoy bowed. Then Deng Zhi was ordered to return to Wu and thank its ruler for his courtesy, and he was to accompany Zhang Wen. So both, having taken leave of the Prime Minister, set out on their journey to the east.
78 In the meantime Sun Quan was beginning to feel perplexed at the long delay of his envoy. He had summoned a council to discuss this question, when the report came that his own envoy had returned, and Deng Zhi was with him. They were brought in forthwith. Zhang Wen, having made his obeisance, began to discourse upon the virtue of the Ruler of Shu and Zhuge Liang and to lay before his lord the proposal for a league of peace. Deng Zhi, the Chair of the Secretariat, was empowered to discuss this matter.
79 Turning to Deng Zhi, Sun Quan said, "Would it not be a happy result if tranquillity should be restored to the empire by the destruction of Wei, and Wu and Shu should share its administration?"
80 "The sky knows not two suns," replied Deng Zhi, "nor can the people recognize two kings. If Wei be destroyed, no one can say upon whom the divine command will devolve. But one who becomes an overlord must perfect his virtue, and those who become ministers must be wholly loyal. In this way strife will cease."
81 Sun Quan smiled, saying, "And your sincerity is beyond question."
82 Deng Zhi was dismissed with rich gifts, and after this Wu and Shu were good friends.
83 The negotiations between his two rivals were reported in Capital Luoyang without loss of time, and Cao Pi was very angry.
84 "If they have made an alliance, it can only mean that they cherish the intention of swallowing the Middle Land. My best move is to strike first."
85 He called a great council. This council lacked the presence of Regent Marshal Cao Ren and Grand Commander Jia Xu, who had both died.	» ZhangLiaosWrath -- Cao Ren's Death -- Most of the major players in the book get a poem or a description of their funeral after they die. Cao Ren gets... a side note? How sad. » Mythos -- Major Player? -- Cao Ren failed at almost every campaign he was a part of. Just because he lasted a long time does not mean he was a major player. Jia Xu was a good advisor. If his advice had been followed, history might have been different. I think HE deserved better. » _Elemental -- I agree that Jia Xu should have deserved better. -- Jia Xu was a powerful advisor of Wei. » Explainer -- a post by Guan Suo -- JiaXu IS the greatest military stratigist of this time, he is much better then Guo Jia and Zhuge Liang, although the book does not show this. » Explainer -- a post by Super Dian Wei -- To say Jia Xu is better than Zhuge Liang is a stretch. Guo Jia... maybe. Aside from this, and a few other flashes of brilliance, Jia Xu did not accomplish much. Zhuge Liang on the other hand, had ASSLOADS of brilliance. And it's not like Jia Xu died before he could prove himself: he lived up to the rule of Cao Pi. That's plenty of time to strut your stuff, but he didn't. Until Jia Xu's list of accomplishments grows a third as long as Zhuge Liang's, I think there is no contest. » Explainer -- a post by JiaGai -- I don't think Jia Xu was an ungodly strategist but he was in the very least a good one with occasional shining moments. He was also probably one of the only noteworthy strategists to actually live out a long life in service of his lord. » Yorak -- I think the reason their deaths have been glossed over is because... -- they didn't die dramatically; they just succumbed to old age or sickness. Several other really major players will only have their deaths mentioned in passing, as well. » RoninDragon -- Cao Ren and Jia Xu -- If you ask me, they both deserved better. Perhaps Cao Ren did fail at essentially every venture he was ever assigned, but he was continually assigned to them. Persistence and conviction go down well in my book, after all, it isn't his fault he was up against other legendary heroes of the age. As for them having succumbed to old age and not dying dramatically... well, not everybody dies dramatically. If you ask me, Cao Cao died an ignoble death also, he just gets major mention because he is Cao Cao. » JiaXuAdvocate -- Jia Xu -- Both Jia Xu and Cao Ren are worthy of mentioning, but for obvious reasons Jia Xu will be the focus of this post here. To me Jia Xu embodied the most practical elements that are portrayed and reflected around in this novel. He was an able strategist, wise politician, loyal servant, and an overall honest and competant advisor. His ability existed also in domestic/civil affairs- Re: Zhang Zhao, but without the conflict of interests to mire him. He was also trusted by the late emperor (and Cao Cao & Cao Pi, also of note), of whom Jia Xu had been with even before Cao Cao, Guo Si & Li Jue. Unfortunately this means he was a subordinate of Dong Zhuo by proxy, since the emperor was under Dong Zhuo's "care". But this should portray his abilities even further; of course, he did have the wisdom and ability to survive that miserable time (as I could imagine). That was the beginning. But here is the ending... and it is in my belief his life ended in time with Sima Yi's rise- Essentially passing the torch- There would be no time for Jia Xu to handle his ideas, or try to curb his ambitions, for the generations are clearly changing. Sima Yi had different ideas for the shape of what China's kingdom should be... but I would only say maybe Jia Kui and Jia Chong could further emulate briefly the attributes Jia Xu had (even though Jia Kui & son Jia Chong are probably not related to Jia Xu, of which I like to imagine otherwise). That's going out on a little limb, but I'll persist with that correlation for now. The only lacking abilities of Jia Xu in this novel were 3 things- physical might, royal ambition, and magic. However, without a doubt in my mind, the pen is mightier than the sword; The brain more enlightening than a royal post; The pen and brain together are nothing but truth, while a wand and portending dreams are nothing but fictional somethings which can invoke heaven without further explanation or accreditation. To reiterate, the few lackings abilities of Jia Xu suggest nothing but that Jia Xu embodied the most practical elements of the novel. The unfavored debate is now layed out to advocate Jia Xu above all. » SunYi -- Cao Ren was no loser. -- Read any comprehensive biography of Cao Ren and you'll discover that Liu Bei was scared pantsless of him. » GuanPingJr -- Guo Jia is THE most unjustly overrated person. -- Liao Dong. Big deal. Jia Xu was by far Wei's best stratigest up to now. He gave Cao Cao, Li Jue, Zhang Xiu, Liu Biao, and even that scum Cao Pi great advise. he deserves at least a shared poem with Cao Ren. How can their deaths be so low key?? I just lost all interest in Wei... they'v got nobody I like anymore. Now that Liu Bei's dead, I'm free to follow Shu now
86 In the council Counselor Xin Pi stepped forward and said, "The Middle Land is extensive, but the population so sparse that no successful army could be raised just now. My advice is to wait ten years, spending that period in forming an army and in cultivating the land till stores and weapons shall have been accumulated. Then both our rivals may be destroyed."
87 "This is only the distorted opinion of a perverted pedant. Having made this league, Shu and Wu may fall upon us at any moment. This matter cannot be postponed for ten years," said the Ruler of Wei.
88 An edict appeared commanding the enlistment of soldiers and the formation of an army to subdue Wu.
89 Sima Yi then said, "Battleships are necessary, as Wu is protected by the Great River. Your Majesty must lead small and big vessels. The navy can advance by way of River Huai, taking Shouchun. When you reach Guangling, the river is to be crossed and Nanxu is to be captured. Then Wu will be subdued."	» RoninDragon -- Great idea. -- Red Cliffs wasn't enough, let's send another fleet. » guanping -- Chi Bi was more a hopeful pursuit -- You can't let one defeat put you off. This time they will be more careful » RoninDragon -- One defeat shouldn't put you off... -- but you shouldn't forget how hot the fire is before you stick your hand back in. » GuanPingJr -- Red Cliffs was a major weakness of Cao Cao's. -- Just that memory kept Wu safe from Cao for years and years, even after Zhou Yu died.
90 This plan was accepted, and the construction of dragon ships was put in hand and went on day and night. Ten were built two hundred spans long to carry two thousand marines each. They also collected three thousand fighting ships.
91 In the autumn of the fifth year of Yellow Dawn (AD 224) the various generals assembled, and Cao Zhen was appointed leader of the first corps. Zhang Liao, Zhang He, Wen Ping, and Xu Huang were Chief Commanders; Xu Chu and Lu Qian were guards of the Center Army; and Cao Xiu commanded the rear guard; the strategists were Liu Ye and Jiang Ji. In all, land and marine forces numbered over three hundred thousand troops. When the starting day was decided upon, Sima Yi was made Chair of the Secretariat and left in the capital with the powers of Regent Marshal.	» WUuuu -- Wei seems to have kept more of its top generals alive longer -- or atleast to have recruited new ones with more success. » darkknight -- wei had a long list of top generals -- xiahou dun/yuan are dead as is cao ren,pang de and dian wei but they still have the likes of xu chu, xu huang and zhang liao. zhao yun, ma chao and wei yan are shu's only great warrior's left. i think the likes of cheng pu, huang gai and han tang are dead so wu is looking a bit bare too. » RoninDragon -- It would only stand to reason that Wei would have more generals, they have a much larger state. » guanping -- um yeah but we're talking about the greats -- most of the great generals are now dead, have to admit suprise at how many Wei still have left alive. » GeneralZhaoYun -- I do not agree. Sure great warriors died, but new were born aswell -- Shu: Wang Ping, Ma Dai, Hu Ban, Liao Hua, GuanXing, Zhang Bao, Li Yan? Wu: Zhou Tai, ding Feng, ling tong, Xu sheng, Zhu Ran » WUuuu -- Most but not all of these guys are outclassed by the first generation. » RoninDragon -- They have more -great- generals -- because they have a bigger state, and a larger army. They survived because they have the backing power of Wei, and thereby aren't in as much danger as the other great generals. Follow me? » GeneralZhaoYun -- Yes, but you must know -- The skills GuanYu may used to defeat many great opponents may be studied by others, and there may have been found a weakness in it. Due time people change, tactic change, and martial arts change. The power will decrease after each generation. How come nobody around this present era can pull a three hundred pound bow? How come the blitzkrieg will not work anymore? » guanping -- Maybe its becuase it feels like an old friend has died when one of the older ones dies -- There were some better some worse with the new genration. Guess I'm biased » JiaGai -- The era of great heroics was during the lifetime of Liu Bei and Cao Cao. -- Much of the story focused on this era and its heroes, so it's only natural that these people and these events were presented in such a majestic fashion. After all, what warriors stood as equals to Lu Bu, Zhao Yun and Zhang Fei in the later half of the novel? How many generals proved as wily and fearsome as Zhang Liao and Gan Ning? Over the last eighty chapters, we've all grown accustomed to these heroes and we've cheered on their great exploits. These men are real to us, they have earned our respect and our admiration. Even though the new generation, just starting to come unto their own, may be just as good as the previous one, we aren't as attached to them because we still look to the older generation with fondness. » WUuuu -- As usual I disagree -- I think we look at the older generation as greater because thats how Luo Guanzhong portrayed them. Wang Lang is not going on to become a god of war. These people are getting killed left and right by an ancient Zhao Zilong. Zhang He went from "base" compared to others to one of the most feared generals anywhere, etc. Luo made the first generation a generation of near gods and when they passed mere mortals cleared up the mess. And yes Ronin, its simple and I got you from the start, I was replying to GZY in the other post, not you. » Flying Flash Swallow -- The next generation -- Jiang Wei, Deng Ai, Ding Feng, Xu Sheng, LU XUN. I honestly felt that just because they are not as heavily discussed, Luo intended to take away none of their glory, just their personality. Just because we don't hear about the epic taunts and hundred bout battles doesn't mean they don't happen. Look at Wen Yang. » WUuuu -- Ah but is Lu Xun really the next generation? -- Lu Xun makes his initial name beating the tar out of Liu Bei and is a contemporary of Lu Meng as well. Ding Feng is around for a huge chunk of time but barely mentioned. Also compare these few numerically with the multitudes of heroes earlier in the novel to see more of what I mean. » Flying Flash Swallow -- Exactly -- The details of their battles are ignored, but not their importance. Remember the time Lu Xun repelled an invasion from Wei and saved Wu from certain destruction? The event was portayed as being important, but was jsut not given much information. Luo does not belittle this new generation, he merely shows that he is only discusing this generation out of historical interest and because the fate of the dynasties is important to the themes he develops when he develops the character of the rulers individually. » WUuuu -- And how is that not belittling the generation? -- And if it isn't belittling them then it is nearly ignoring them in comparison. » LuBoyan -- Luo does not judge, as you point out -- His selected focus is Liu Bei and Cao Cao, but it is crucial to know how their legacies ended to understand them, which is the only reason he continued. He does not imply that his selected focus is better.... merely his point of focus. » WUuuu -- I believe that -- since it is his point of focus it is his implication that we are to emphasize them more and care for them more. » JiaXuAdvocate -- To jump in the fray -- It is amazing how Luo portrayed more than a generation. But his focus was indeed on Liu Bei and Cao Cao's generation. Just look at the distribution of the novel's content. We are at chapter 86 of 120 and there have been roughly 30 years of intense focus representing 95% of what's happened in the novel so far. The novel as a whole spanned roughly 100 years of history... This equates to 3 full generations of people, hence 3 generations of character evolution. At this point, the detail of the times are starting to zoom out, i.e. each chapter represents more historical time. So Luo's got 2 more generations to complete and only about 1/4 of the novel left to write (as it happens to have been done). Logically less of a focus on the characters must exist, since the chapter lengths are suprisingly consistent. What this analysis indirectly leaves out, up to this point, was how great the people/characters actually were. But in the context and content of this novel ONLY, Liu Bei's and Cao Cao's generation wins hands down.
92 The spies told the Prince of Wu's attendants of the dangers, and the latter hastened to inform the Prince.
93 They said, "Cao Pi is leading the dragon fleet and commanding three hundred thousand marines and ground forces against the South Land, and the danger is very great."
94 When Sun Quan met his council, Gu Yong said, "My lord, you can call upon Shu for help according to the treaty. Write to Zhuge Liang and get him to send out an army through Hanzhong so as to divert part of Wei's army. Also you send an army to Nanxu to oppose them there."
95 "I shall have to recall Lu Xun," said the Prince. "He is the only man to undertake this great task."
96 "Do not move him if you can help it. He is necessary for the protection of Jingzhou."
97 "Yes, I know. But there is no other strong enough to help me."
98 At these words Xu Sheng advanced, saying, "I know I am not very able, but I desire to be given an army to meet this danger. If Cao Pi crosses the river in person, I will make him prisoner and present him at the gate of the Palace. If he does not come over here, I will slay so many of his soldiers that his army shall not dare even to look southward."
99 Sun Quan was pleased to find a willing volunteer, and replied, "Noble Sir, what anxiety need I feel if I have your protection?"
100 Xu Sheng was given the title of General Who Protects the East and made Chief Commander of all the forces in Nanxu and Jianye. As soon as he had received his orders, he retired. He gave command to gather enormous quantities of weapons, and had many flags and banners made for the protection of the river banks.
101 But another impetuous young leader was anxious to take more vigorous measures, and he stood forth, saying, "My lord has laid upon you, O General, a heavy responsibility. But if you really desire to destroy the invading force and capture Cao Pi, you should send an army to meet him on the north side in the South of River Huai. I fear failure if you wait till the northern troops have come this far."
102 The young man was Sun Shao, nephew of the Prince of Wu. Sun Shao was born to a Yu family, and he was adopted by Sun Ce and given the Sun family name. He had already the title of General Who Possesses Wide Prestige, and was in command at Guangling. Though young and impetuous, he was very valiant.
103 Said Xu Sheng, "Cao Pi's army is strong and its leaders famous. I hold that we may not cross the river to meet him, but wait the arrival of his ships on the other side. Then I shall carry out my plan."
104 "I have three thousand troops of my own, and I know the country about Guangling thoroughly. Let me go across the river and fight a battle. I will willingly undergo the penalty if I fail," said Sun Shao.
105 However, Xu Sheng refused, and all the pleadings of his impetuous general were vain.
106 And when Sun Shao still persisted, the commander grew angry and said, "What control shall I have if you are allowed to disobey orders?"
107 Xu Sheng ordered the lictors to take Sun Shao out and put him to death.	» SunYi -- A ploy... -- This action is seen as part of a ruse in other sources - Xu Sheng and Sun Shao have a showdown, and Wei cannot tell who the ally is and who the enemy is.
108 They led him away, and forthwith the black flag was hoisted. But one of Sun Shao's generals went off in hot haste to tell Sun Quan, who came immediately to try to save his favorite. Happily the execution had not been accomplished when the Prince appeared on the scene, and he bade the executioners disperse. The youth was saved.
109 Sun Shao began to press his claim to the Prince, saying, "I have been at Guangling, and if we do not attack the enemy there, but let him get down to the river, there will be an end of Wu."
110 Sun Quan went into the camp, and Xu Sheng came to receive him.
111 When the Prince was seated in his tent, Xu Sheng said, "O Prince, you placed me in command of the force to repulse Wei. Now this general of mine, Sun Shao, is disobedient and should suffer death. I would ask why he should be pardoned."
112 "He is naturally hot and impetuous. He has been guilty of disobedience, but I hope you will overlook his fault."
113 "The law is none of my making, nor is it yours, O Prince. It is a state penalty, and if relationship is enough to evade it, where is discipline?"
114 "He has offended, and you have the right to judge and punish. But although his real name is Yu Shao, yet my brother Sun Ce loved him and gave him our family name. Further, Sun Shao has rendered me good service. If he should be put to death, I should fail in my fraternal duty."
115 "Since you have intervened, O Prince, I remit the death penalty."
116 Sun Quan bade his nephew thank his chief, but the youth would not make an obeisance. On the contrary, he loudly maintained the correctness of his view.
117 "Leading troops against Cao Pi is the only way," cried Sun Shao. "I cannot consent to your other plan even under the penalty of death!"
118 Xu Sheng's countenance changed. The recalcitrant young man was ordered to leave the tent by Sun Quan.
119 "He will not be any loss to us," said Sun Quan to Xu Sheng, "and I will not employ him again."
120 Then the Prince left and returned to his own place.
121 That night they reported to Xu Sheng that Sun Shao had gone secretly over the river with his own three thousand troops. Xu Sheng did not wish him to come to harm, as evidently that would displease the Prince. So Xu Sheng sent a force to support him. Ding Feng was chosen to command this reinforcement, and he was told what to do.
122 The Ruler of Wei, in his dragon ships, reached Guangling, and the van got to the river bank. He came to survey the position.
123 "How many soldiers are on the other bank?" asked Cao Pi.
124 Cao Zhen replied, "I have not seen a single one. Nor are there any flags or encampments."
125 "That is a ruse. I will go and find out."
126 So Cao Pi set out to cross the river in one of the dragon ships. He anchored under the bank. On his boat were displayed the imperial emblems of dragon, phoenix, sun, moon, and they shone out bravely. Seated in the ship, the Emperor looked up and down the south bank, but not a man was visible.
127 "Do you think we should cross?" asked the Emperor of his strategists.
128 Liu Ye replied, "If the rules of war mean anything, they ought to be prepared. We think Your Majesty should exercise caution. Wait a few days and watch. Then perhaps the van might be sent to make a reconnaissance."
129 "So I think," said the Ruler of Wei. "But as it is now late, we will pass the night on the river."
130 It was a dark night, and the ships was brilliantly lighted up; it seemed like day on board. But all along the south bank there appeared no glimmer of light.
131 "What do you think it means?" said Cao Pi.
132 The courtiers replied, "They heard that Your Majesty's heavenly army was coming, and ran away like so many rats."	» RoninDragon -- Brown nosers -- Don't you love them? » guanping -- Well sucking up with a mixture of truth never really hurts -- its when they suck up and lie is the problem. here they had just got cocky » RoninDragon -- Cocky doesn't describe -- They seem dellusional. o.o Smoked a bit too long on the ceremonial pipe, Chief?
133 The Ruler of Wei laughed to himself. When daylight came there came with it a thick fog, so that nothing on the bank could be seen. After a time, a breeze blew off the fog, and then, to their immense surprise, they found that the whole length of the South of the Great River as far as they could see was one battlement, with towers at intervals, while spears and swords glittered in the sun and flags and pennons fluttered in the breeze.
134 In just a short time several reports came: "A long wall by the Great River has grown up in a night and stood there with carts and masts of ships lying along it, stretching some one hundred miles from Shidou to Nanxu."
135 The fact was that the wall was an imitation, and the warriors that manned it were bundles of reeds dressed in soldiers' uniforms. And this was Xu Sheng's tactic. But the sight chilled the ardor of the invaders.
136 "My hosts of troops are no use against such warriors. We can do nothing against those talents of the South Land," said Cao Pi.
137 He thought over this sadly enough. But now the wind had increased in force, and white combers began to heave up in the river, and waters broke over his boat, drenching the dragon robes. The ship seemed as if it would roll right over. So Cao Zhen sent out small boats to rescue his master and his people. But they were too affrighted to move. Wherefore Wen Ping, who was in charge, leaped on board and helped the Emperor down into one of the smaller craft, which then flew away before the wind and got safely into a creek.
138 Soon came a hasty messenger to report: "Zhao Zilong is marching out through Yangping Pass and threatening Changan."
139 This frightened Cao Pi so badly that he decided to retreat, and gave orders to retire. The whole army were in a mood to run away, and moved off toward the north, pursued by the troops of Wu. To hasten the march, the Ruler of Wei bade his soldiers abandon all the imperial paraphernalia and impediments. The dragon ships withdrew into River Huai one by one.
140 As they moved in disorder, suddenly arose the sounds of an enemy force, shouts and the rolling of drums and the blaring of trumpets, and a cohort marched down obliquely on to their line. And at the head was Sun Shao.	» SunYi -- PWNed! -- Sun Shao is to credit for this as much as Xu Sheng is. Sure, he disobeyed orders, but he's pickin' up on daddy's traits (Sun Ce)
141 The troops of Wei could make no effective stand, and many were slain, while large numbers were driven into the river and drowned. By dint of great efforts, the Emperor was saved and got away up the river. But when they had sailed about ten miles, they saw ahead a tract of blazing reeds. The enemy had poured fish oil over the dry reeds and set them afire. The wind was spreading the flames down river toward the fleet of Wei, and the heat was intense. The dragon ships had to stop.
142 Cao Pi was put into a smaller craft and taken on shore. His larger ships were presently set on fire and destroyed. They mounted the Emperor on a horse and moved along the bank, but soon they fell in with another body of troops. This time it was the supports under Ding Feng.
143 Zhang Liao rode ahead to engage the leader, but was soon wounded by an arrow of Ding Feng in the loins. However, he was helped away by Xu Huang, and the Ruler of Wei was gotten safely out of the turmoil. The loss of soldiers was heavy, and a huge booty of horses, carts, ships, and weapons fell to the victors.	» HistoricalHooligan -- crotch shot -- the odds of getting shot in the crotch while riding a horse seem mind-boggling to me. I think it would be a near physical impossibility. » JiaGai -- Possibly, it wasn't directly to the crotch but somewhere on the lower abdomen. -- It's a little more open a target, though the shot has still got to be a one in a million. » Super Dian Wei -- Most of the shots are like that. -- Hell, Huang Zhong was wounded by an arrow in the ARMPIT. That makes this loin shot look like a planned attack. » RoninDragon -- Well, it's possible that he wasn't fully sitting down in his saddle... -- thereby increasing the chance of getting hit. Aside from that, he was probably shot in the thigh near his artery, which would be why he died from it. » MasterMaChao -- Ronin! people didnt know that, -- dont mention anything that happens furtheron or you ruin the book for first time readers! » MasterLiang -- it may not be much of a spoiler when it only happens three or four paragraphs from here. » IloveNDfootball -- Besides, these notes go through editing. -- If something was a really bad spoiler, it would be edited out, unless it is a very good note.
144 So the Wei armies went away north thoroughly beaten, while Xu Sheng had scored a great success. Sun Quan richly rewarded him.	» RoboSSS -- Score! -- A great success, but would it have been had it not been for that recalcitrant youth? ;-p » JiangWeiWarrior -- Xu Sheng -- WOW, this was an impressive victory for Wu. Check out the odds here: Wei: 300,000 men + Xu Zhu, Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, Zhang He, and Wen Ping Wu: 6,000 troops + Shu Sheng, Ding Feng and Sun Shao » ZhangDun -- He Fei reversed! -- Isn't it ironic? Zhang Liao scored his biggest success in a similar situation... and suffered his death in the situation reversed? Poor Zhang Liao.
145 Zhang Liao got to Xuchang, but only to die from the effects of his wound. He was honorably buried by the Ruler of Wei.	» _Aarrow11 -- Zhang Liao -- A hero among heros, true to his beliefs until the end. Extremely loyal and respectable. I found him to be the most interesting character of the three kingdoms to read about. He lived a long life through many battles, usually on the winning side... I'll bet he died with a smile... » _Fabian8 -- you got that right » ZhangLiaosWrath -- amen » Mythos -- I agree -- For once, I agree. I believe Zhang Liao was at LEAST the equal of Guan Yu. At this point in the story, Wu, Wei, and Shu had lost nearly all of their original "heroes". » JiaGai -- Death of Zhang Liao -- An inauspicious end to a great Wei general. Of the most repected names of Wei, Zhang Liao had to have been the most effective and successful amongst his peers. He was a fierce warrior in battle and even earned Guan Yu's respect (and that's a feat in and of itself). His successful and efficient defense of He Fei, despite being outnumbered, showed just how skilled a military leader he was. May the man, who could scare crying Wu children into silence by the mere mention of his name, rest in peace. » Jimcheng -- zhang liao -- zhang liao was loyal n didnt fear death even when about 2 get executed by cao cao, rest in peace » Destrucity -- Zhang Liao rocks! 'nuff said! -- No doubt, he's my favorite Wei officer. Okay, so Xu Huang and Dian Wei are right up there. But the battle of He Fei is where I went from saying "yeah, he's pretty good" to "holy crap, best general ever!" » RoninDragon -- Zhang Liao being at the very least equal to Guan Yu is, I think, an understatement. -- All respect to Guan Yu, Zhang Liao is his superior. As for his having died with a smile... would you be smiling if you were shot in the crotch? » pangtongreincarnated -- well i dont think that zhang liao is guan yu's superior. -- He is probably Guan Yu's equal. Zhang Liao has an amazing record, but i think guan yu has done more for shu. Guan Yu has my respects. But Zhang Liao's cool. He stoped guan yu from fighting to death that one time. » JoeYun -- it's sad other, less merited, characters get a poem or a temple, this guy gets buried and forgotten » Bmwmasse -- what the hell is up with this?????? -- so far i have counted 3 wei heroes (xiahou dun, cao ren, and zhang liao) and one really good strategist (jia xu) have died, and they didnt even die without some kind of poem or something???? i mean when xiahou dun died i was pissed, then cao ren and jia xu died, and i was really wondering what the beep was going on? and now zhang Liao dies.... my favorite wei characters dies -.- what next. they could have at least put in something about [Red Cliffs] and how he made wu children cry just becuase of his name. -.- » AnhTran -- lol -- Just to show you this story is painted in the classic way. Good guy vs Bad guy. Bad guys don't usually get poems. = p » MasterLiang -- Yes he did! -- Its right there, in Mao's fireplace, next to Xiahou Duns! » GuanPingJr -- again no recognition -- no poem even... If Cao Cao were to see this, he'd have writen one himself. Who does Wei have left? They have nobody! So falls another great general. RIP, Zhang Liao... » cFodder -- THE REAL END OF ZHANG LIAO -- Zhang Liao was obviously too badass to die like pussy from a simple arrow wound... however... having been shot in the crotch, I submit that Zhang Liao realize that life was no longer worth living - and so he decided to kill himself by forcing open a tiger's mouth and climbing down its throat where its stomach acid slowly dissolves him, but he doesn't make a sound because he's ZHANG LIAO and he's way too manly - naturally eating a full sized Zhang Liao causes the tiger to choke and die. And that's the god's honest truth! Kinda... » Seproth -- *bows in respect* a moment of silence please....... -- ...... so ends the life of my favorite hero in the book and in the game. Zhang Liao he was a man of honor. He was truly the greatest of his time. He was a much better general than Guan Yu. A man of honor, Loyal till the end, Unafraid of death, and a great leader and tactician, and a great fighter. Truly a legend of in his own right. May he rest in peace in the 9 springs below.
146 It has been said that Zhao Zilong was threatening Changan. But soon after he went through Yangping Pass, the Prime Minister of Shu sent a dispatch to recall him because General Yong Kai in Yizhou had joined himself with the Mangs and invaded the four southern territories. So Zhao Zilong returned. Meanwhile Ma Chao was ordered to take command of Yangping Pass. The Prime Minister was about to go to subdue the nations along the south border. He was then preparing at Chengdu for this expedition.	» darkknight -- ma chao should have gone to fight the mangs -- he hasn't done anything in ages » JiaGai -- That's because Ma Chao is up north making sure the Qiang stay in line. -- He was securing the north so Kongming could fight in the South without worry. Because of Ma Chao's reputation with the Qiang, he was a natural choice. » Pang Tong -- If I recall -- His father had the greatest of respect from the Qiang and really his preoccupation was with Cao Cao and rightfully so... insert princess bride quote here » RoninDragon -- Inconceivable? -- >.> What quote are you going for? Anyway, Ma Chao wouldn't have brought much to fighting the Mang tribes that Zhao Zilong couldn't, and if he had come, it would have left too big of an opening for Wei or the Qiangs to come waltzing into Shu. And you know full well that Zhao Zilong wasn't going to sit out, he's Shu's most active general. » WUuuu -- the quote he's goin for -- is- "Hallow, my name is Inigo Montoya, Ju killed my father, prepare to die..." Not "Ju keep on saying that! I do not really think it means what choo think it means" » MasterMaChao -- this is 224? but Ma Chao apparently died in 222? help? -- Ma Chao could bring alot in fighting with the Mang tribes, he was feared by many and him just being there would make a great effect, but he was more useful in the north at this point, their family and Qiang had great respect for each other and would not cause harm to one another. He and maybe Ma Dai are the only ones who can secure a non violent solution so they were the best choices » JiaGai -- From what I saw of Ma Chao's translated SGZ bio, there is no definitive date of his death. » Ledrug -- 222 -- Ma Chao died in 222 AD, before Liu Bei.
147 First Wu met Wei and drove them north, Then Shu against the Mangs went south.
148 The story of this campaign will follow in the next chapters.

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