««« Chapter 82 »»» Sun Quan Submits To Wei, Receiving The Nine Dignities; The First Ruler Attacks Wu, Rewarding Six Armies.

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1 In the eighth month of the first year of Manifest Might (AD 221) the First Ruler marched at the head of his army and camped at Baidicheng (City of the White Emperor), through the Kui Pass. His advanced guard had gone beyond the River Lands when his attendants told him that Zhuge Jin had come as a messenger from Wu. He told them not to admit Zhuge Jin.
2 But Huang Quan said, "His brother being your Prime Minister, Zhuge Jin is certainly come on some important mission. Your Majesty ought to see him and hear what he says. If his proposals are admissible, then agree; if not, he can be made use of to take knowledge of your intentions to Sun Quan and let Sun Quan know that you intend to punish his crime."
3 Then the First Ruler gave way, and the messenger was brought in. He bowed down to the earth.
4 "Zhuge Jin, you have come a long journey. What is its object?" said the First Ruler.
5 "My brother has long served Your Majesty; I have come at the risk of my life to discuss Jingzhou affairs. When Guan Yu was at Jingzhou, my master repeatedly sought to ally the two families by marriage, but was refused. When Guan Yu attacked Xiangyang, Cao Cao wrote again and again urging my master to attack Jingzhou. But the Marquis was unwilling, and it was the enmity between your brother and Lu Meng that led to the attack and the unfortunate success.
6 "My master is now very sorry for it, but it was Lu Meng's doing. However, Lu Meng is now dead, and his enmity has died with him. Moreover, Lady Sun is always thinking over returning to you. My master now proposes to send back the lady, to bind and hand over to you those officers who surrendered, and to restore Jingzhou. If the two houses swear perpetual amity, then we may join forces against Cao Pi and punish his usurpation."
7 To this harangue the First Ruler only replied, "You of East Wu killed my brother. Yet you dare come with your artful talk!"
8 Zhuge Jin said, "I only wish to discuss the relative importance of the issues. Your Majesty is an Imperial Uncle, and Cao Pi has seized the throne of your House. Yet you do not think of destroying the usurper, but on the other hand you disregard the most honorable position in the world for the sake of a so-called brother, a connection of another name. Surely this is rejecting the chief for the subordinate, the main issue for a detail.
9 "The Middle Land is the biggest part of the empire, and the two capitals, Luoyang and Changan, are both famous as places whence the two, one the Founder, the other the Restorer, of the Hans, initiated their mighty task. Your Majesty takes no thought of these, but would dispute over Jingzhou. In other words, the important is abandoned for the worthless.
10 "All the world knows of your assumption of the dignity of Emperor and that you will assuredly restore the Hans and rescue their territory. Only now you do not try to deal with Wei, you only desire to attack Wu. I venture to think you have made a bad choice."
11 All this argument only added fuel to the fire.
12 "The slayer of my brother shall not live in the same world as I. You ask me not to fight. I will cease when I have slain your master. Were it not for the sake of your brother, I would behead you at once. As it is, you may go; and you may tell your master to cleanse his neck ready for the blade of the executioner."	» _Shadout Mapes -- Changes -- This is not the same Liu Bei who refused to take Jingzhou, or to betray anyone who he knew well. As soon as Guan Yu dies, you can really see a dramatic change here. » Super Dian Wei -- It's like in an action movie. -- When the heroes brother or girl dies, he puts his nose to the grindstone and gets to buisiness. Liu Bei is no different. » Flying Flash Swallow -- on the other hand -- I beg to differ. Typically Liu Bei has always put his own morals above the welfare of the state. Before, it was his moral that he should not attack family that prevented him from taking Jingzhou. Now, it is respect for his oath in the peach garden that motivates him. Liu Bei is angrier, and he is seeking more violence, but this is still a continuation of the conflict between his morals and the good of the state. In short, Liu Bei is no politique. » JiaGai -- An angry Liu Bei -- I think it's a little of both, personally. Liu Bei always held his ideals and morals high, shunning opportunity and advantage in favor of maintaining his virtue. A filal brother is a virtuous one, and a filal brother seeks vengeance for his brother's death. On the flip side, he also became obsessive and enraged, steeling himself for the express purpose of seeking vengeance, no matter the cost. It was "expected" of him as well as being personal to him. » toocold -- Liu Bei -- I agree with Jia Gai in a sense. However, Liu Bei just strikes me as foolish. He can never seem to do the prudent thing, and lets either his emotions or his morals mess up grand schemes. » YoungZhugeLiang -- Man the guy lost his two best generals/brothers, and you don't think he will change??? » JiaXuAdvocate -- This is true. Think of Cao Cao's flags of VENGEANCE after the death of his father, Cao Song -- Cao Cao took a while to get out of that mindset. Each of the main 3 kingdom leaders have had to deal with personal tragedy. » LiaoHua -- lol. Were he not related to Zhuge Liang, Zhuge Jin would have died like 10 times over at this point. » Drackor -- Although everyone deals with tragedy. -- A man in a position as important and powerful as Liu Bei should be able to seperate Personal affairs from State affairs. This action by itself is what makes Liu Bei an unsuitable leader. Although he has alot of virtue, he has absolutely no self-control. A Family member dies and not only goes to war but goes it alone. He has both Zhao Zilong and Wei Yan uninvolved. Zhuge Liang is controlling the state instead of leading the army. There are so many reasons why this action is stupid that you can't list them all. To top it all off, He was given a MIGHTY nice peace settlement and he refused it. "Emotion is the enemy of Reason". » Michael M. Pettit -- Consider ... -- As far as Zhuge Liang goes, in reality his greatest skill was in state administration, a point which is mentioned liberally in these side notes. And Liu Bei has lost family members before, but none as close to him as Zhang Fei or Guan Yu. It could be argued that the doom of the three brothers is partly due to Guan Yu not following the oath as seriously as the others, and Liu Bei going way overboard. I don't see Liu Bei as an unsuitable leader, but simply one that had a major flaw that he didn't see or correct. Better examples of unsuitable leaders come much later. » Drackor -- Pettit -- You said it yourself he has a major flaw, which IS what makes him unsuitable. He's being alittle megalomeniacal about the peach tree oath. I understand it was important to him, but he's takin it WAY too far. He's getting 700,000 into war because of HIS personal hatred of Sun Quan. Granted they are soldiers, but I don't think they signed on to go help Liu Bei take revenge. Taking 700,000 to avenge 1 is just stupid. » Michael M. Pettit -- Major flaw ... -- The most major flaws and shortcomings are indeed correctable. Even though it was not historically so, just look at Zhang Fei's evolution from drunkard that was blamed for many of Liu Bei's earlier losses to the great hulking mound of kickass that he really is. Granted, that one major flaw did unhinge him, but I think that were he not so, he would have been a great leader. Like I said, read on, and you'll see genuine unsuitable leaders. Liu Bei at least had the fundamental ability, which is more than can be said for some. » AdmiralThrawn -- Perhaps -- Has no one noted that Liu Bei is using the death of his brother as a justification for a war that he seems likely to win, from the point of view of just about everyone? And that after he wins he would double the size of his realm and that the new territory would be easily defended from an attack from the north due to geography?
13 Zhuge Jin saw that the position was hopeless and took his leave to return to the South Land.
14 But while Zhuge Jin had been absent, Zhang Zhao said to Sun Quan, "Zhuge Jin knows something of the strength of the Shu armies, and he made this mission an excuse to get out of danger. He will not return."	» ZhouYu -- Zhang Zhao is probably the worst advisor in ROTK. » _Elemental -- Zhang Zhao is a better civil officer though. » YoungZhugeLiang -- Duh -- Sun Quan was told only to listen to him on internal matters!!! » cFodder -- Well -- Zhuge Liang already gave Yu an aneurism so Sun Quan really doesn't have anyone to rely on. Zhang Zhao recieves the external advisor runner-up award.
15 The Marquis replied, "He and I are sworn friends---friends to the death. I shall not wrong him, nor will he betray me. When he was at Chaisang and Zhuge Liang came to our country, I wanted my friend Zhuge Jin to persuade his brother to remain with me. His reply was that his brother would not remain any more than he himself would go: Each would be faithful to his salt. That was quite clear enough. How could he desert me after that? Our friendship has something of the divine in it, and no talk from outside can sow dissension between us."	» ZhouYu -- See? He's so bad he can't even convince Sun Quan. » Yorak -- Zhang Zhao is another one who gets the short end of the stick in this novel. -- Historically, he was a great civil officer and a good advisor. As for Sun Quan not listening, well... he did tend to ignore Zhang Zhao's good advice too often for his own good. » JiaGai -- Zhang Zhao -- We don't get to see the civic affairs being taken care of during the novel. Such things are seemingly inconsequential compared to the epic that is warfare. What we get to see of Zhang Zhao is his pathologically pacifistic philosophy play out over and over again. » JiaXuAdvocate -- "Pathologically pacifistic"... good term! -- I think some areas of the world may be afflicted with this kind of problem even today. But that's another debate. But Zhang Zhao did only have one mindset- I do believe his good intentions were mired in bad judgement and over-fearfulness. Of course I would weigh bad judgement and too much fear against the good of intentions, and make them closer to bad intentions.
16 Even as Sun Quan spoke, the servants told him that Zhuge Jin had returned.
17 "What do you think now?" said Sun Quan.	» cFodder -- hehe -- Sun Quan: IN YOUR FACE ZHAO!
18 Zhang Zhao retired overwhelmed with shame. The luckless messenger unfolded his tale of failure.	» Super Dian Wei -- This is a prime example of why keeping your big mouth shut is often a good idea. -- Sure, he was a god in civil affairs, but he should really stick to them. » CaoCaofan -- did what he felt... sure he was wrong here but thats no reason to hate him! -- At least he stood up for what he believed in!! If he had been right here he would be considered a great advisor, but just because a couple bad choices are on his record doesn't mean he is a bad advisor!!I mean look at Zhuge Liang he is making a huge mistake by not leading Liu Bei's army into it's biggest war ever!!
19 "Then the South Land is in great danger," said Sun Quan, as he heard the story.
20 But a certain man here interposed, saying, "I have a way out of the difficulty."
21 He was Counselor Zhao Zi.
22 "What good scheme do you propose, friend Zhao Zi?" said Sun Quan.
23 "Let my lord draw up a document, which I will take to Cao Pi in Wei, making a full statement of the case, and get him to attack Hanzhong and so draw off the danger from our land."
24 "Though the suggestion is good, yet shall we not lose something of our dignity by that?" said Sun Quan.
25 "If there is any such thing, I will simply jump into the river---I could not look the South Land's people in the face again."
26 Sun Quan was satisfied and composed the memorial, styling himself "Minister". Therein Zhao Zi was duly appointed messenger. He took the document and soon reached Capital Xuchang, where he first sought out the High Minister Jia Xu, and then saw the others.
27 Next day, Jia Xu stood forth one day at court and said, "East Wu has sent a high officer, Zhao Zi, with a memorial."
28 "Because he wants the armies of Shu driven off," said Cao Pi, smiling.	» GeneralZhaoYun -- Like father Like son -- CaoPi may not be as cunning and clever as his father, but he surely did inherited a great part of it. He knows, what to do, how to anticipate, how to attack, what was best, and who was to be trusted and who not. On the other hand we have liu bei, a kind and virtues man, not that cunning, but he surely knew how to rule and keep his men satisfied. Only his son could not fulfil hisfathers dream, due to incompetance. I wonder what if Liu Bei would have son as clever as CaoPi?? and what would have happened if Cao Cao only had a son a little Liu Shan like?
29 But he summoned Zhao Zi, who, having prostrated himself in the outer court, handed in his memorial.
30 After reading it, Cao Pi said, "What sort of an over-lord is the Marquis?"
31 "Intelligent, clear-sighted, wise, brave, and perspicacious," was the reply.
32 Cao Pi laughed, "Your praise is none too enthusiastic."
33 "I do not wish to overstate," replied Zhao Zi, "but my master has shown various qualities at different times. He made use of Lu Su among the officials of high ranks, which shows his intelligence. He chose Lu Meng as leader of all armies, which showed his clear-sightedness. He captured Yu Jin but did not hurt him, which shows his kindliness. He took Jingzhou without slaughter, which shows his wisdom. He maintains the Three Rivers so as to command the respect of the empire, which shows his boldness. Lastly, he bows before Your Majesty, which shows his perspicacity. You see now that my epithets are justifiable."	» Zhou Sun -- couldn't be more right -- you know, i'm not sure why most of this novel focuses around cao cao and liu bei. THIS description of Sun Quan is the description of the real hero in this story, and it's a shame that we don't hear more about the wu territory » Jimcheng -- wu -- shu n wei stories are more interestin, the only good parts in wu is where the wu generals get killed or die of illness, so far lu mengs death has bin the best » Speaker -- hmm -- The only reason you believe Shu and Wei stories are more interesting is because the novel focuses on them. Luo Guanzhong made Liu Bei out to be the "good guy" and Cao Cao the "bad guy." Thus, the novel focuses on Liu Bei and Cao Cao the most with Sun Quan, or Wu, as the odd man out. In fact, Wu attacked Wei many times around the He Fei area. However, the novel focuses solely on Kongming and not on these attacks, or Wu for that matter. Sun Quan, though he did help establish and maintain Wu, was not the greatest. Nor was Wu the peaceful kingdom it is made out to be. » Laguna Cottage -- True. If you look at the small map, you will see... -- during the Three Kingdoms period, Wu ruled even the north bank of the Great River (I think it was after the Red Cliffs, and then Jingzhou). So Wu did expand north faster than Shu. Wu's south was thinly populated and new, but the population concentrated along the Great River on Jianye (Shidou), Gongan, Jingzhou, etc. Exactly how they got the north bank, the book did not go into details except for Jingzhou. » toocold -- Wu -- I think the author could have made the story more interesting and more balanced if he elaborated on Wu. » Drackor -- Historical Wu -- There is good reason that LGZ decided to make Wu a "third wheel" if you will, because they were. Although it is true Wu was more active than mentioned here, compared to Shu and Wei they were less active. Historically Wu was an Isolationist nation which was ruled by a confederation of the most powerful families of the area. (Sun's, Lu's being most prominent). While Shu and Wei were always enemies, Wu was never clearly on one side or the other. They went back and fourth between alliances to whoever suited them best. This shows that as far as China was concerned they had no ambition of re-unification. While Shu and Wei fought, Wu expanded their territories by going south instead of north and conquered parts of common day north vietnam. Large portions of their forces were constantly stationed south to keep their new territories in check, which is why they appear to be weaker than Shu and Wei Militarily.
34 "Is he at all learned?"
35 "Sire, remember he commands a large fleet of ten thousand battleships and a huge army of million armored soldiers. He endeavors to find wise and capable people to help him, and his mind is full of plans and projects. When he has a little leisure, he reads the histories and the annals, for the sake of the general lessons to be learned therefrom. He is no dryasdust pedant seeking remarkable passages and culling model sentences."	» GeneralZhaoYun -- It seems it is only a matter of time to have a million army of your own. -- Liu Bei at this points has 700,000 troops with him. Wu has now a million army aswell. Although Wu cannot summon too many men to go on a conquest I think. Shu has protective mountains surrounding their land, so they needed not as many men to guard their empire as Wu had to. Wu, after all, did control the most part of the great river, and surely a large river like that took more men to defend than a few passes through the mountains. As for wei, they always had the most troops, there land is the biggest, and their attack force is the biggest aswell. However they had the hardest job to protect their land, it was wide and large. » cFodder -- Keep in Mind -- Zhao Zi isn't going to tell Cao Pi "Well actually we've pulled everyone to the Shu border because we only have seventy-five thousand combat ready soldiers". Unless you're an unparalleled superpower and just want to scare the hell out of your opponents, keeping your actual troop numbers to yourself is generally good policy. Cao Pi would likely know Zhao Zi is BS'ing him.
36 "Do you think I could overcome Wu?"
37 "If a large state has military force to attack, a small one has also preparations for defense."
38 "Does Wu fear Wei?" asked Cao Pi.
39 "How can you think so, considering our army of million armored soldiers and the defensive moats we have in the River Han and the Great River?"
40 "How many such persons as high minister does Wu possess?"
41 "Nearly a hundred intelligent and specially qualified ministers like your servants; of my sort of ordinary knowledge there are too many to reckon up."
42 Cao Pi sighed, saying, "The book says 'Going on mission without losing the dignity of the master.' That is the sort of man you are!"
43 Thereupon he issued the mandate ordering Xing Zhen, Minister of Ceremonies and Sacrifices, to be his ambassador to Wu, bearing for Sun Quan the title of "Prince of Wu" and allowing him to use the "Nine Signs of Honors".
44 But when the messenger had gone out of the city, Liu Ye went to remonstrate, saying, "Sun Quan has done this for fear of the armies of Shu. In my opinion, if Shu and Wu fight, heaven will make an end of one country. If you will send an army across the Great River to attack, and Shu attack at the same time from the west, Wu as a state will disappear. If Wu goes, then Shu will be left alone and can be dealt with when you will."
45 "But I cannot attack Sun Quan now that he has come over to my side. It would prevent anyone else from doing so. No! I will really accept his submission. It is the best course."
46 Liu Ye said, "After all, though talented, he is but a General of the Flying Cavalry and Lord of Nanzhang of the decadent days of Han. His rank is low and his influence small, yet he still wants to contest the Middle Land. If you promote him to kingly rank, he is only one step below yourself. While doubting the reality of his submission, you give him an exalted rank and increase his influence. Surely this is only giving wings to a tiger."
47 "Not at all; I am helping neither Wu nor Shu. I am waiting till they are at grips, and if one goes under, there will be only one left to destroy. That will be easy. However, say no more, for I have decided."
48 Whereupon Xing Zhen was bidden to take the mandate and the Nine Dignities and accompany Zhao Zi to Wu.
49 Sun Quan assembled his officers to discuss how the armies of Shu could be driven off. Then came the news of princely rank conferred by Wei. By the rules of courtesy, the messenger bearing the edict should be met at a great distance from the capital, but Gu Yong was opposed to accepting the rank.
50 "My lord, you should style yourself 'Supreme Ruler' and 'Lord' of the nine territories. You should not receive any rank from Wei."
51 "But on one occasion Liu Bang received the princedom of Han (Hanzhong) from Xiang Yu. I have to depend upon circumstances. Why refuse?"	» Super Dian Wei -- You know, all the people of these times referred to people of like 200-300 years ago. -- My question is 'Who did those people refer to?' If nobody is the answers, people like Liu Bang were true pioneers. » toocold -- There's always someone to refer to. -- I suppose Liu Bang referred to his forefathers or the previous dynasty. I'm not completely sure but I don't think Han was the first dynasty. » Super Dian Wei -- I don't know who was first, but it was NOT Han! -- Shang... Chu... Qin... all before Han. » GeneralZhaoYun -- Each Generation -- brings forth men of talent. Wheter it was Civil or Military, there were always men and women who arose above others by showing their skills. the greatest of all will be remembered. First in tales, then as myth, if the one was truly heavenly, he would become a legend. And to each of these heroes can the next generations look up too, and it continues forth like this. Dont people refer to Napoleon if someone is getting too overconfident? or to Clinton when one is horny? As for the dynasties, the very first was the Xia Dynasty, then Shang, Zhou, Qin, and then Han. And the first dynasty may be the Xia according to history, but objects have been found that could confirm that there was even an empire before the Xia: the village of BanPo. » LiaoHua -- Wasn't it skeptical as to whether the Xia Dynasty actually existed or not
52 Sun Quan discussed the matter no more, but went out at the head of a great gathering of officers to welcome the messenger.
53 Xing Zhen, the bearer of the mandate from Wei, on first arrival comported himself haughtily as the representative of a superior country and an imperial ambassador. And when he entered the city, he did not descend from his carriage. Wherefore Zhang Zhao ventured to rebuke him.
54 "Everyone must obey the rules of courtesy as everyone must respect the laws. You, Sir, are behaving proudly as if there was no such thing as a sword in this country."
55 Immediately the messenger descended from his chariot and was presented to Sun Quan. Afterwards they went in side by side.
56 As the cavalcade proceeded, a loud voice was heard in the rear of the two carriages, crying, "Here we are prevented from risking our lives in smashing Wei and swallowing Shu; and our lord receives a title from another man. Are not such things shameful?"
57 The man was Xu Sheng.
58 And Xing Zhen sighed, saying, "If all the leaders and ministers of the South Land are like this, the Prince of Wu will not long be content to obey another."
59 However, the title was accepted. And when he had received the felicitations of his officers, Sun Quan gave orders to collect beautiful works in jade and brilliant pearls, which were sent to Wei as return gifts.
60 Not long after came tidings of the forces of Shu: "The First Ruler, together with King Shamo Ke of the Mang nations, leads his own army and a large number of tribesmen from the east and south. Furthermore, he is aided by the two Shu generals of Dongxi, Liu Ning and Du Lu, with their cohorts. They advance both by land and by water, a mighty host, of which the shouting shakes the heavens. The naval force has already come out at Wukou, and the land force has reached Zigui."
61 Although Sun Quan had been created a prince, yet Emperor Pi would not send a relieve army.
62 When the terrible news came, the Prince of Wu asked present advice from his officers, saying, “How are we going to meet those forces?”
63 But there was none to help him. They only muttered and were silent.
64 "Ah!" sighed he. "After Zhou Yu I had Lu Su, and Lu Meng succeeded Lu Su. But now they have all three gone, and there is no one to share my troubles!"
65 But just then a very youthful general stepped out from the ranks of the officials and said, with a lowly obeisance, "Though I am young, I am not a little versed in the books of war, and with a few legions I could destroy the power of Shu."	» GeneralZhaoYun -- Now i have a question -- How many men would it take to form a group?? how many for an unit? and how many for a whole legion? » JiaGai -- Army size and numbers. -- Actually, there's no real way of telling unless the novel gives us numbers. Each nation, during different periods of time, had different ways of tallying the size of each fighting force. In Rome, for example, a Legion represented a full army of 3000-6000 plus cavalry. A Legion was split up into ten Cohorts, made up of 300-600 men. Modern day American ground forces are split into squads of about 10 men. Two to four squads make a platoon. Two to four platoons made a company. Four to six companies make a battalion. Three to five battalions make a brigade. Roughly three or four brigades make a divison. Two to five brigades make a corps and an army consists of two or more corps. As you can see, it can vary quite a bit. Here, by "legions" he means several sizeable bodies of soldiers. He was asking for a considerable fighting force, but nothing truly massive. » GeneralZhaoYun -- Hmm thanks for the explanation JiaGai -- When they mention a legion, I always think about lots and lots of troops, Near an half Million, dont know why... » JiaXuAdvocate -- It may be good to look for the original text to see how they translated the numbers. -- Maybe also find out what the most modern definition of "Legion" was during the time of Brewitt-Taylor (1910s & 20s). Alas, I am clueless as to where this type of context can be found » GongsunZanlives -- legions -- a legion is 10,000 toops alright. When Cao Ren organized an army of 100,000 he divided them into equal sized legions and every other time it is 10,000 also. so a 1,000,000 troops = 100 legions » Seraph -- Legions = 10,000 -- it goes 10,000 to 1,000 to 100 to 10 in the Roman military. I forget all the names of the different groups, but that's how it was organized at its peak. I'm sure it varied when it declined, but that's what it was supposed to be.
66 Sun Quan recognized Sun Huan, the son of Sun Hu. Sun Hu was originally from the Yu family, and he had served under Sun Jian, Sun Quan's father. Sun Jian loved the youth and gave him his own family name of Sun and so made him a member of his own clan. Sun Hu had four sons, of whom Sun Huan was the eldest. Sun Huan was an expert archer and horseman and had accompanied Sun Quan in several campaigns, where he had distinguished himself well and had been given a rank of Commander. At this time he was twenty-five.
67 "How do you think you can overcome them?"
68 "There are two able commanders under my command named Xie Jing and Li Yi, both very brave. With a few legions I will capture Liu Bei."
69 "Though you are brave, nephew, yet you are young and ought to have an assistant."
70 Thereupon Tiger General Zhu Ran stepped forward, saying, "Let me go."	» JiaXuAdvocate -- Tiger General from Wu? Is there some ambiguity in this; -- And how does/ do this/ these person/ people compare to the five (now three) Tiger Generals of Shu? » RoninDragon -- My thinking is that they assign "Tiger" because of its ferocity. -- The Shu Tigers got special mention because they were of Shu, and the novel was written by a Shu fanatic. » GeneralZhaoYun -- Wei had theirs aswell -- 5 to be precisly: Zhang Liao, Zhang He, Xu huang, Yu Jin and Yue Jin » guanping -- who else in wu was a tiger? » WUuuu -- Wei didnt have Tigers -- There were just 5 generals of Wei. They aren't referred to as tigers. » Flying Flash Swallow -- The 5's -- Is there an offical Five of Wei and Five of Wu? I've heard of both, but I remember Li Dian in the Wei list, so I wonder if it was a historical distinction. The Five of Wu were Sun Jian, Han Dang, Cheng Pu.... and.... some others I think. Anyone know? » WUuuu -- GZY was right about the Wei 5 (theyre listed in all the KOEI games) -- and I believeyou're right about the Wu 5 as well, Huang Gai is one also. DOn't know the last 1. » LiaoHua -- It said Zhu Ran so i guess he's the last one » waynethegame -- Tiger General -- In this case, "Tiger General" is Zhu Ran's actual military rank (like how you have General of the Left, Right, Flying Cavalry, etc.) and isn't a title like the 5 Tiger Generals of Shu (which were never real ranks, anyways, and just given to them). As was said, Wei's equivalent to the Tiger Generals were: Zhang Liao, Zhang He, Xu Huang, Yu Jin and Yue Jin. Also, for the record, I think the real "5 Tigers" of Wu were Sun Jian, Han Dang, Cheng Pu, Huang Gai and Zu Mao, and they were called the Magnificent Five or something like that. Basically it was his little group before the story actually begins. Unfortunatly I can't remember where I read that, so take it as you will.
71 Sun Quan consented. He promoted Sun Huan to General of the Left Army, and he told off fifty thousand of soldiers and marines, over whom he placed Sun Huan and Zhu Ran as joint commanders. They were to start as soon as possible.	» _anonymous -- That's it? -- Fifty thousand against seven hundred and fifty thousand? » iluvNDfootball -- Ah... -- Ah..., wait till' you see what they are capable of doing! » GeneralZhaoYun -- The defending side always has a advantage » Yunsung -- Not necessarily... -- When you are defending, you have to conserve your land jealously, because to be driven back would be death. Also, because you are rooted to the spot that you are defending, you are susceptible to attack from the flanks. And if you are entrenched... a good lengthwise volley down the lane followed by a charge would destroy you. » Shokyo -- I don't know about you, but I think your troops would get an ickle bit bored... -- And I'm guessing it may be a good idea to put your troops in squares to bulk up your lines a bit. Good few hundred arrows would take care of that. » Blindbeggar -- Another reason why defense isnt always at advantage. -- When you defend, you are reacting to some sort of move by the attacker. If you are the one having to react to the enemy, then you are at a disadvantage. If you are the one forcing the enemy to defend, then you are always the one to make the next move and are in control. This isnt always true, but more often than not it is the reason one side loses. You have to constantly push the enemy striking non-stop until they get flustered and make a critical mistake. This is true for single combat and full scale campaigns. Of course if your attack is not planned out, and you leave yourself open for a counter-strike as you engage the enemy, this line of thinking would not be true. » Drackor -- Fighting Squares -- The Square formation wasn't always a good one to adopt. Like anything else it depends on the situation. When Hannibal crossed the alps and first faced the romans they vastly outnumbered him. They fought in the standard square formation that they always did. What Hannibal did was place his troops in a line formation and when the two units were upon each other, the line surrounded the square formation and prevented the troops in the middle from fighting, thus affectively evening the odds troop wise for Hannibal. There are many formations you can use, when it comes to war its really a matter of geometry.
72 The scouts reported that the army of Shu was camped at Yidu, and Sun Huan led half his army to the borders of that county and camped in three stockades.
73 Now the Shu General Hu Ban had received his seal as Leader of the Van. From the day he left the borders of the River Lands, he had had uninterrupted success. Everyone had submitted at the mere rumor of his coming. He had conducted his campaign with unstained swords as far as Yidu. When he heard that Sun Huan was camped there to oppose his progress, he sent back rapid messengers to the First Ruler, who was then at Zigui.
74 The First Ruler got angry, saying, "So they think this youth is able to withstand me?"
75 "Since this nephew of Sun Quan has been made a leader," said Guan Xing, "it is unnecessary to send a leader of high rank. Let me go."
76 "I was just wishing to see what you could do," said the First Ruler, and he gave him orders to go.
77 Just as Guan Xing was leaving, Zhang Bao stepped forth and asked permission to go too.
78 "Then both go, my nephews," said the Emperor. "But you must be prudent and not hasty."	» JiaGai -- Advice Liu Bei himself should take. » toocold -- true -- very true
79 So they took leave, collected their troops and advanced. Sun Huan, hearing of the coming of a large army, called out all his troops and drew up his array. His two famous generals, Li Yi and Xie Jing, were placed by the great standard. They watched the soldiers of Shu filing out and noted two leaders in silver helmets and silver armors, riding on white horses, and the flags were white. First came Zhang Bao with a long spear, and then Guan Xing carrying a great saber.
80 "Sun Huan, you tiny rascal, your time has come!" cried Zhang Bao abusively. "How dare you stand against the forces of Heaven?"
81 "Your father is a headless devil," cried Sun Huan, no way backward in reviling, "and you are going just now to join him. Don't you see?"
82 Then Zhang Bao rode at Sun Huan. From behind his chief, Xie Jing dashed out to meet him. They fought nearly forty bouts, and then Xie Jing ran away with Zhang Bao in pursuit.
83 When Li Yi saw his comrade overcome, he whipped up his steed and came into the fray, whirling his silvered battle-ax. Zhang Bao fought twenty bouts with him, but neither got the better.
84 Then in the army of Wu, a marching general named Tan Xiong, seeing that his two comrades could not overcome Zhang Bao, shot a treacherous arrow from the ranks and wounded Zhang Bao's steed. Feeling the pang of the wound, the horse bolted back to its own side, but fell before it reached it, throwing its rider sprawling on the ground. Seeing this, Li Yi turned and rode toward the prostrate leader to slay him with his battle-ax. But just as he was about to deliver his blow, lo! a red flash came between, and his head rolled along the earth.
85 The red flash was Guan Xing's great sword. Seeing the horse fall and Li Yi coming up, he had rushed in and dealt that fatal blow. And he had saved Zhang Bao from death. Then they attacked and lay on so that Sun Huan suffered a great defeat. Then each side beat the retreat and drew off.
86 Next day Sun Huan came out to offer battle again, and the two cousins went forth together. Guan Xing, from horseback by the main standard, challenged his enemy. Sun Huan rode out fiercely, and they two fought near thirty bouts. But Sun Huan was not strong enough and drew off. The two youths followed and reached his camp. Hu Ban, together with Feng Xi and Zhang Nan, also launched another attack. Zhang Bao helped them with all his force and was the first to force his way into the ranks of Wu. He came across Xie Jing, whom he slew with a spear thrust. The soldiers of Wu scattered and fled, and the victory was on the side of Shu.
87 But Guan Xing was missing. Zhang Bao was desperate, saying, "If something wrong happens to Guan Xing, I will not live!"
88 So he girded on his huge spear and rode far and wide seeking him. Presently he met Guan Xing, bearing his sword in his left hand, while his right held a captive.
89 "Who is this?" asked Zhang Bao.
90 "In the melee I met an enemy," said Guan Xing, "and I took him prisoner."	» GeneralZhaoYun -- As I just said about Caopi inheriting his fathers skills -- these two fine youths can easily become as famous as his fathers were before him » Yunsung -- But... they didn't. -- Perhaps because the great battles were mainly over. My opinion is that they simply weren't as deserving of recognition. They were merely generals of Later Shu, not one of the founders. » Shokyo -- Cao Pi was eighteen in the days of Yuan Shao -- I guess he got to learn a lot of his cunningness from his father, and he's experienced life as a general before being a ruler. I may be missing something here but all the best rulers have been generals before leaders. » WUuuu -- Not Liu Biao » guanping -- Liu Biao wasn't that great a ruler -- good but he didn't recgnise the time of chaos had arrived. For a time of chaos it helps if you where a general before you became leader, I believe. So during this time of chaos the best leaders where former generals » WUuuu -- Liu Biao was a great leader -- While he lived no one dared attack his lands. He was well defensed and prosperous. Just because he didn't have the ambition to attack doesn't mean he wasn't a great leader. He just wasn't a warrior. » guanping -- He was fine for peace however during a time of war he should be serving somone else. -- Sun Jian attacked Lui Biao as did Cao Cao. He genrally didn't have that many good genrals but he did have 2 surperb ones in Wei Yan and Gan Ning. Good leader for peace just in wrong time as it was war. » WUuuu -- In fairness to him -- Things had been the same for several hundred years. I got the impression Liu Biao thought regular order would retake control and just wanted to mind his business and go about things as always until then.
91 Then Zhang Bao recognized Tan Xiong, the man who had let fly the treacherous arrow that had brought down his horse. The two returned to camp, where they slew their prisoner and poured a libation of his blood to the dead horse.
92 After this they drew up a report of the victory for the First Ruler. Sun Huan had lost his generals---Li Yi, Xie Jing, and Tan Xiong---as well as several other officers and many troops. His army was too weakened to continue the campaign, so he halted and sent back to Wu for reinforcements.
93 Then Generals Zhang Nan and Feng Xi said to Hu Ban, "The power of Wu is broken. Let us raid their encampment."
94 But Hu Ban said, "Though so many have been lost, there are many left. Zhu Ran's marine force is in a strong position on the river and is untouched. If you carry out your plan and the marines land in force and cut off our retreat, we shall be in difficulties."
95 "That is easily met," said Zhang Nan. "Let each of the two leaders Guan Xing and Zhang Bao take five thousand troops and go into ambush in the valleys to guard against any such move."
96 Said Hu Ban, "I think it better to send some persons to pretend to be deserters. Let them tell Zhu Ran of the plan to raid the camp, and Zhu Ran will come to the rescue as soon as he sees fire. Then the ambushing soldiers can attack him."	» PhoenixLord -- Shu just scored a victory. -- Why would any one desert if they had just defeated the opposing side? » cFodder -- Possibly... -- Many of the soldiers from this period were conscripted peasants - its quite probable that a few desertions were just tended to happen regardless of the army's state. Many Shu soldiers were probably expecting to fight a defensive campaign for their homelands against Wei but instead find themselves marching into the heart of Wu... suddenly soldierly life might not agree with them, particularly once the fighting actually starts. That's a possible interpretation.
97 They thought this a fine plan, and they made the necessary arrangements.
98 Hearing of the ill success and losses of his colleague Sun Huan, Zhu Ran was already thinking of going to his help, when a few deserters appeared and hoarded his ship.
99 He questioned them, and they said, "We are Feng Xi's soldiers, and we have deserted because of unfair treatment. We have a secret to tell."
100 "What secret can you betray?"
101 "Tonight Feng Xi is going to make an attack upon General Sun Huan's camp. He thinks it is a good chance. They are going to raise a fire as a signal."
102 Zhu Ran saw no reason to doubt the men, and he sent off at once to tell Sun Huan. But the messenger never arrived, as Guan Xing intercepted and slew him.
103 Then Zhu Ran deliberated upon going to help.
104 "You cannot trust what those soldiers said," said Cui Yu, one of the commanders. "Both army and navy will be lost if anything goes wrong. No, General; rather keep careful watch and let me go."
105 Zhu Ran saw this was the wiser plan, so he gave Cui Yu ten thousand troops, and Cui Yu left.
106 That night Hu Ban, Zhang Nan, and Feng Xi made an attack on Sun Huan's camp from three directions, and the soldiers were scattered and fled. Then the three generals set the whole camp on fire. Cui Yu saw the flames as he marched and pressed on. Then just as he was passing some hills, he came upon the ambush, and Guan Xing and Zhang Bao poured out from left and right. Taken by surprise, Cui Yu could only try to flee, but he met Zhang Bao, who made him prisoner.
107 When Zhu Ran heard the news, he was panic-stricken and dropped down-river twenty miles. The remnant of Sun Huan's troops ran away, following their leader.
108 As they fled, Sun Huan inquired, "Is there any city ahead that has good defense and granary?"
109 They told him, saying, "To the north is Yiling, where we can camp."
110 So they went thither.
111 Just as they reached the wall, their pursuers came up and the city was besieged in all four sides.
112 Guan Xing and Zhang Bao brought the captive Cui Yu back to Zigui and saw the First Ruler, who rejoiced at their success. The prisoner was put to death, and the soldiers were rewarded. The effect of these victories spread far, so that the leaders in Wu had no inclination to fight.
113 When the Prince of Wu received Sun Huan's call for help, he was frightened and knew not what to do.
114 So he called a great council, and he said, "Sun Huan is besieged in Yiling, and Zhu Ran has been defeated on the river. What can be done?"
115 Then Zhang Zhao said, "Though several of your commanders are dead, yet have you many left. Half a score is enough to relieve your anxiety. Send Han Dang as Commander, with Zhou Tai as his second, Pan Zhang as Van Leader, Ling Tong as Rear Guard, Gan Ning in reserve. You want one hundred thousand troops."	» gambit -- in other words -- Time to quit messing around and send out the big guns!
116 Sun Quan made the appointments as proposed. Gan Ning was very seriously ill just then, but he accepted the task.	» Xingba -- Gan Ning's illness -- Gan Ning was suffering from Dysentery, a horrible disease of diarrhea that plagues the body with stomach cramps and causes blood to be lost in diarrhea. It was extremely brave and noble of him to accept the task in such a state. » Blindbeggar -- Good Thing he is reserve then! -- Though it is very honorable to go into battle with disentery, I would not want him over exerting himself in the van or something. Disentery... reminds me of pulp fiction, lol. Won't go into that.
117 Now the First Ruler had made a line of forty camps from Wukou and Jianping to Yiling, spreading twenty-five miles of distance.
118 He was exceedingly pleased with his two nephews, who had distinguished themselves again and again, and he said, "The generals that have followed me since the early days have got aged, and thus no longer a big use. But now that I have such two valorous nephews, I have no fear for Sun Quan."
119 Then he heard of the coming of Sun Quan's army under Han Dang and Zhou Tai, and he wished to select a commander to oppose the Wu army.
120 But those near him reported: "Huang Zhong and a half dozen other officers have run off to Wu!"	» SwordOFKings -- Huang Zhong -- He's still alive? how old is he here? » guanping -- I think about 80 -- why he is allowed anywhere near a battlefield is beyond me » JiaGai -- I don't think he's quite that old. -- At the oldest, he's probably in his early 70's. As for why he's near a battlefield, he's already proved that an old man can accomplish quite a bit. » guanping -- yeah theres a diffrence between what he did -- and so old a minor bruise would kill him. ok exgaration but you get the point
121 "Huang Zhong is no traitor," said the First Ruler, smiling. "It is only that he heard what I happened to say about old and useless leaders. He will not accept he is useless and wants to prove he is not."	» cFodder -- Hehe -- It seems Liu Bei's picked up a few tidbits from Zhuge Liang's bag of tricks.
122 Then he called Guan Xing and Zhang Bao and said to them, "Huang Zhong may fail in this enterprise of his, so I hope you two will not mind going to his assistance. As soon as there is some success to report, get him to return and do not let him come to grief."
123 So the two got their troops together and went off to assist the aged warrior.
124 When young, success is easy, thine at will, The aged servant fails, though willing still.
125 The next chapter will relate the outcome of Huang Zhong's expedition.

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