««« Chapter 50 »»» Zhuge Liang Foresees The Huarong Valley Episode; Guan Yu Lifts His Saber To Release Cao Cao.

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1 The last chapter closed with Huang Gai in the water wounded, Cao Cao rescued from immediate danger, and confusion rampant among the soldiers. Pressing forward to attack the naval camp, Han Dang was told by his soldiers that someone was clinging to the rudder of his boat and shouting to him by his familiar name. Han Dang listened carefully and in the voice at once he recognized that Huang Gai was calling to him for help.	» LuXun -- Huang Gai -- You barely see huang gai asking for help. hes too tough for that! » guanping -- well that is what he was doing -- tough or not, nobody wants to drown As to this chapter... for the most part, all Mao's own work. I think he overdoes it myself » DongDal -- He started -- With the whole million man army thing.
2 "That is my friend Huang Gai!" cried he, and they quickly pulled the wounded leader out of the water.
3 Then they saw Huang Gai was wounded for the arrow still stuck. Han Dang bit out the shaft of the arrow but the point was deeply buried in the flesh. They hastily pulled off his wet garments and cut out the metal arrowhead with a dagger, tore up one of the flags, and bound up the wound. Then Han Dang gave Huang Gai his own fighting robe to put on and sent him off in a small boat back to camp.	» Seraph -- Han Dang -- and the rest of Wu are underrated for their heroism, in my humble opinion. » IloveNDfootball -- I would agree with that » AnhTran -- hmm, Han Dang was being more of an army medic in this scene. » ManwithaGoldenEyebal -- Underating of Wu -- According to the note about the history of ROTK, versions of the story were never biased towards Wu. On top of that, it also says Wu generals weren't even presented as worthy opponents to Shu generals until the 1200's. Frankly, I'm surprised Sun Quan isn't shown as a tyrant and Zhou Yu as a lunatic. » guanping -- which is a suprise as Wu and Wei fought the most -- Shu was the third party and Shu affected things in thier own way but it was really Wei vs Wu. As to what they showed Sun Quan and Zhou Yu. Sun Quan is shown as an unrelible ally(which is an amazing role revarsal) and Zhou Yu is made less smart but still smart enough that he makes Zhuge Liang look like a god
4 Huang Gai's escape from drowning must be taken as proof of his natural affinity for, or sympathy with, water. Although it was the period of great cold and he was heavy with armor when he fell into the river, yet he escaped with life.	» guanping -- or he is just very lucky
5 In this great battle at the junction of the three rivers, the Three Gorges, when fire seemed to spread wide over all the wide surface of the water, when the earth quaked with the roar of battle, when land forces closed in on both wings and four battle squadrons advanced on the front, when the ferocity of fire answered the clash of weapons and weapons were aided by fire, under the thrusts of spears and the flights of arrows, burnt by fire and drowned by water, Cao Cao lost an incalculable number of troops. And a poet wrote:	» JiaGai -- History repeats -- A devastating loss for Cao Cao, but one that mimicks not a little a victory he enjoyed some years back. When Yuan Shao was threatening him with a massive military force, he used all his cunning and the talents of his best officers to stave the tide and break the back of Yuan Shao's army. Now, with an insurmountable naval invasion force, the vastly outnumbered Wu forces break the back of Cao Cao's invasion through strategy, deceit and the talent of their officers. » MaMengQi -- Cao Cao is much much underated in the novel -- He is a great strategist, a talented politician, the best poet in his era. Actually, "Jian An Qi Zi", which we call the seven greatest poets/scholars of the three kindom area. The Cao family, Cao Cao, Cao Pi, Cao Zhi are the top three of them. The poem Cao Cao sang on the Yangtze River at Red Cliffs, is an alltime classic of the Chinese literatures. It is in the high school textbook.
6 When Wei and Wu together strove For the mastery, In the Red Cliffs fight the tall ships Vanished from the sea, For there the fierce flames, leaping high. Burned them utterly. So Zhou Yu for his liege lord Got the victory.
7 And another poem runs:
8 The hills are high, the moon shines faint. The waters stretch afar; I sigh to think how oft this land Has suffered stress of war; And I recall how southerners Shrank from the northern army's might, And how a favoring eastern gale Helped them to win the fight.
9 While fire was consuming the naval base of Cao Cao, Gan Ning made Cai Zhong guide him into the innermost recesses of Cao Cao's camp. Then Gan Ning slew Cai Zhong with one slash of his sword. After this Gan Ning set fire to the jungle; and at this signal, Lu Meng put fire to the grass in ten places near to each other. Then other fires were started, and the noise of battle was on all sides.	» ZhugeLou -- I can just see it now... -- Cai Zhong: "Here we are Gan Ning, I think cao Cao should be over there. *points to one of the ships*"" Gan Ning: "Thanks buddy, here you go, can you hold my head band while I get off my ship?" Cai Zhong: "Sure thing buddy!" Gan Ning: "Bye bye! *cuts him down*"
10 Cao Cao and Zhang Liao, with a small party of horsemen, fled through the burning forest. They could see no road in front; all seemed on fire. Presently Mao Jie and Wen Ping, with a few more horsemen, joined them. Cao Cao bade the soldiers seek a way through.	» guanping -- am I the only one who thinks Mao really loves fire? » DongDal -- I thought that was Zhuge Liang myself...
11 Zhang Liao pointed out, saying, "The only suitable road is through the Black Forest."
12 And they took it.
13 They had gone but a short distance when they were overtaken by a small party of the enemy, and a voice cried, "Cao Cao, stop!"
14 It was Lu Meng, whose ensign soon appeared against the fiery background. Cao Cao urged his small party of fugitives forward, bidding Zhang Liao defend him from Lu Meng.
15 Soon after Cao Cao saw the light of torches in front, and from a gorge there rushed out another force. And the leader cried, "Ling Tong is here!"	» Yunsung -- Ling Tong is one of Wu's most underrated generals. -- Perhaps it was his rivalry, and thus inherent comparison with Gan Ning, but he deserves far more credit than he normally receives. A true hero, who lived long enough to fight for Sun Quan's heir as well. » Seraph -- He is not alone be any means -- Wu produced many, many underrated and underappreciated heroes. Wu's purpose in the story, though, is that of a fifth wheel; they don't seem to fit. However, they produced many great heroes, such as the aforementioned Ling Tong. I don't think it is "Shu bias" as much as it is a literary impossibility to truly balance three conflicting kingdoms. To have a moral, it is much easier to have the heroes (Shu) and villains (Wei) in competition. Wu doesn't fit because Wei was the main competition of Shu, and therefore becomes the villain since Liu Bei takes the role of the hero. Wu is the odd man out, and therefore is ignored in many cases. » cFodder -- I kinda like Wu's role in the story... -- Wei and Shu are both portrayed as being kingdoms run by legendary figures of near godlike proportions. Wu on the other hand is portrayed almost realistically in terms of what its leaders and generals are capable of. And so you have two kingdoms that dominate the realm by a few great heroes and Wu, who stands up and competes toe-to-toe with these two simply by using competent, ordinary people. Not to deride Gan Ning, Sun Ce, Taishi Ci et. al. as they did kick a great deal of the proverbial posterior but rather to say that Wu, as a whole, is portrayed as an ordinary kingdom competing against epic kingdoms of almost mythical proporions. I like Wu just as it is - the kingdom that is greater than the sum of its parts. » guanping -- Wu is the kingdom of nercromancers
16 Cao Cao was scared. His liver and gall both seemed torn from within.	» watermelon -- gall -- In chinese culture, gall represents one's courage. » MaTseng -- hmmm -- i think he just peed his armor...
17 But just then on his half right, he saw another company approach and heard a cry, "Fear not, O Prime Minister, I am here to rescue you!"
18 The speaker was Xu Huang, and he attacked the pursuers and held them off.
19 A move to the north seemed to promise escape, but soon they saw a camp on a hill top. Xu Huang went ahead to reconnoiter and found the officers in command were Cao Cao's Generals Ma Yan and Zhang Zi, who had once been in the service of Yuan Shao. They had three thousand of northern soldiers in camp. They had seen the sky redden with the flames, but knew not what was afoot so dared make no move.
20 This turned out lucky for Cao Cao who now found himself with a fresh force. He sent Ma Yan and Zhang Zi, with a thousand troops, to clear the road ahead while the others remained as guard. And he felt much more secure.
21 The two went forward, but before they had gone very far, they heard a shouting and a party of soldiers came out, the leader of them shouting, "I am Gan Ning of Wu!"	» Kelpie -- Gan Ning -- In DW3, whenever you encounter Gan Ning, he says "I'm Gan Ning of Wu! Who're you?" I think it's neat how Koei uses this quote.
22 Nothing daunted the two leaders, but the redoubtable Gan Ning cut down Ma Yan. And when his brother warrior Zhang Zi set his spear and dashed forward, he too fell beneath a stroke from the fearsome sword of Gan Ning. Both leaders dead, the soldiers fled to give Cao Cao the bad news.	» guanping -- he must have thought them citizens of Wu -- they are his favroiute thing to kill
23 At this time Cao Cao expected aid from Hefei, for he knew not that Sun Quan was barring the road. But when Sun Quan saw the fires and so knew that his soldiers had won the day, he ordered Lu Xun to give the answering signal. Taishi Ci seeing this came down and his force joined up with that of Lu Xun, and they went against Cao Cao.	» _I luv ND football -- Lu Xun -- This is Lu Xun's first combat experience. He should acquit himself well. I have great respect for his tactical brilliance. It rivals, and I personally believe it surpasses Zhou Yu. » Yorak -- Indeed -- Lu Xun is one of the most brilliant and underrated strategists of the period, both historically and in the novel. He rocks. » LuXun -- thats my boy -- Thats my boy Lu Xun Takjin charge and ickin ass! » cloudgal -- so cool -- I also heard Lu Xun's par with Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi. » Tiamatty -- Lu Xun -- Lu Xun is more like Zhuge Liang than Zhou Yu. A brilliant tactician, but excels even more at civil matters. His grasp of military maneuvers is quite adept, probably on a level with Zhou Yu. Not as good as Zhuge Liang, but more than adequate for anyone else dumb enough to attack Wu. Still, it was as Prime Minister that Lu Xun truly excelled. And I think he's probably got some humble experience putting down bandits at this point. He just gets better and better with time. » guanping -- Lu Xun wasn't to bad milatry wise, I rate him above Kongming but below Zhou Yu -- however he was a civil genuis
24 As for Cao Cao, he could only get away toward Yiling. On the road Cao Cao fell in with Zhang He and ordered him to protect the retreat. Cao Cao pressed on as quickly as possible.
25 At the fifth watch he was a long way from the glare and he felt safer. He asked, "What is this place?"
26 They told him, "It is west of the Black Forest and north of Yidu."
27 Seeing the thickly crowded trees all about him, and the steep hills and narrow passes, Cao Cao threw up his head and laughed.
28 Those about him asked, "Why are you, Sir, so merry?"
29 And he said, "I am only laughing at the stupidity of Zhou Yu and the ignorance of Zhuge Liang. If they have only set an ambush there, as I would have done, why, there is no escape."
30 Cao Cao had scarcely finished his explanation when from both sides came a deafening roll of drums and flames sprang up to heaven. Cao Cao nearly fell off his horse---he was so startled.	» LiaoHua -- lol -- This is like those comical scenes in the cartoons when someone says well at least it doesn't get any worse then this then it does
31 And from the side dashed in a troop, with Zhao Zilong leading, who cried, "I am Zhao Zilong, and long have I been waiting here!"
32 Cao Cao ordered Xu Huang and Zhang He to engage this new opponent, and he himself rode off into the smoke and fire. Zhao Zilong did not pursue; he only captured the banners, and Cao Cao escaped.	» CapitalisticIdeals -- Why didn't he get Zhang Liao to fight Zhao Zilong? Fight of the 2nd century » AnhTran -- the point was to escape -- why bother trying for a victory when your army has already lost and had Wu armies chasing after you. I doubt watching a fight go on for 100s round was in Cao cao best interest at the time. Xu huang, Zhang He vs Zhao Zilong. Zhang Liao vs Zhao Zilong. which match would be better to delay the enemy? » BraveZilong -- Zhang Liao -- If my memory is correct, I think Zhang Liao was still preoccupied saving Cao Cao from Lu Meng.
33 The faint light of dawn showed a great black cloud all around, for the southeast wind had not ceased. Suddenly began a heavy downpour of rain, wetting everyone to the skin, but still Cao Cao maintained his headlong flight till the starved faces of the soldiers made a halt imperative. He told the men to forage in the villages about for grain and the means of making a fire. But when these had been found and they began to cook a meal, another pursuing party came along, and Cao Cao again was terrified. However, these proved to be Li Dian and Xu Chu escorting some of his advisers whom he saw with joy.
34 When giving the order to advance again, Cao Cao asked, "What places lay ahead?"
35 They told him, "There are two roads. One was the highway to South Yiling, and the other a mountain road to North Yiling."
36 "Which is the shorter way to Jiangling?" asked Cao Cao.
37 "The best way is to take the south road through Hulu Valley," was the reply.
38 So Cao Cao gave orders to march that way. By the time Hulu Valley was reached, the soldiers were almost starving and could march no more; horses too were worn out. Many had fallen by the roadside. A halt was then made, food was taken by force from the villagers, and as there were still some boilers left, they found a dry spot beside the hills where they could rest and cook. And there they began to prepare a meal, boiling grain, and roasting strips of horse flesh. Then they took off their wet clothes and spread them to dry. The beasts, too, were unsaddled and turned out to graze.	» guanping -- wow no "how evil is Cao Cao" comment from anyone » DongDal -- Why? -- He did let them rest after all. » guanping -- food forced from the villagers bit -- that and your comment? He couldn't go at a sedate pace you know. » DongDal -- Didn't notice that bit. -- Yeah does make look evil. But on the other hand the troops need to be fed o they don't revolt. » guanping -- Desprate circumstances » DongDal -- Yup.
39 Seated comfortably in a somewhat open spot, Cao Cao suddenly looked up and began to laugh loud and long.
40 His companions, remembering the sequel of his last laugh, said, "Not long since, Sir, you laughed at Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang. That resulted in the arrival of Zhao Zilong and great loss of troops to us. Why do you now laugh?"
41 "I am laughing again at the ignorance of the same two men. If I were in their place, and conducting their campaign, I should have had an ambush here, just to meet us when we were tired out. Then, even if we escaped with our lives, we should suffer very severely. They did not see this, and therefore I am laughing at them."	» liuffeng -- cao cao is stupid -- cao cao is sayin i wouldve set up an ambush here because im super smart and everone else is dumb. if cao cao saw this as a good place for an ambush. the WHY THE HELL did he camp there. if you ask me cao cao is the dumb one » CaoCaofan -- He is laughing because they stopped and have been there awhile and the ambush did not happen... -- so he thinks there is no ambush, as most occur as soon as the opportunity arises! I think this shows how smart Cao Cao was, it shows that if he was in the position of Zhuge Liang he would have done the same things! Pretty impressive if you ask me! » guanping -- Cao Cao was forced to camp there in the novel -- not much more he could do
42 Even at that moment behind them rose a great yell. Thoroughly startled, Cao Cao threw aside his breastplate and leaped upon his horse. Most of the soldiers failed to catch theirs, and then fires sprang up on every side and filled the mouth of the valley. A force was arrayed before them and at the head was the man of ancient Yan, Zhang Fei, seated on his steed with his great spear leveled.
43 "Whither would you flee, O rebel?" shouted he.
44 The soldiers grew cold within at the sight of the terrible warrior. Xu Chu, mounted on a bare-backed horse, rode up to engage him, and Zhang Liao and Xu Huang galloped up to his aid. The three gathered about Zhang Fei and a melee began, while Cao Cao made off at top speed. The other leaders set off after him, and Zhang Fei pursued. However, Cao Cao by dint of hard riding got away, and gradually the pursuers were out-distanced. But many had received wounds.	» MasterLiang -- Wow. Zhang Fei took Zhang Liao, Xu Huang AND Xu Chu.... » Kveltulfr -- They're worn out, and on the run -- Also, they were just trying to hold him off long enough to escape, not win. » CaoCaofan -- Althoug this is very impressive, think back to Lu Bu! -- He took on Zhange Fei (in his younger and probably better time), Guan Yu (another incredible warrior), and Liu Bei (sure made the fight a little more difficult!) Now that is unbelievable!!! » MasterLiang -- Except he lost. » Seraph -- Lu Bu earned his reputation as a great warrior because he was untouchable in battle. -- He never really killed anyone of note, but could defend himself against the best attackers. » CaoCaofan -- he did have to retreat -- but still Zhange Fei is fighting tired and worn generals, Lu Bu was much better. also the Wei Generals are not really aiming to kill Zhange Fei, just stall him so they wouldn't be concentrating on offense! » ZhaoZilongfan -- I disagree CaoCaofan. The young Guan, Zhang, and Liu were not experienced in war. -- Zhang was a farmer, Guan was....? ...wanted for murder later on, and Liu was a shoe salesmen. They were strong, so what? They hadn't had time to cultivate their talent like Lu Bu had. Think later in the book Zhang Fei fought on par with Lu Bu while Zhang Fei was DRUNK! By the way, you stole my style yo! I'm the fan around here so what din!? No just playing. » CaoCaofan -- actually no -- Zhang Fei was in one of his drunken rages and Lu Bu did not actually duel him! Instead he took the city to save Zhang from doing anything too stupid. Then he offerd the city to Liu Bei but Liu Bei refused. I think one of the biggest downfalls was Lu Bu trust in Liu Bei. If he would have killed Zhang Fei, and he could've because he was drunk, and claimed the land, Liu Bei would not have had anywhere to return to. Then he could have avoided Liu Bei's betrayal. » MasterLiang -- Cao Cao would not have let him live no matter what liu bei said, because he begged for mercy. -- Cao Cao spared Zhang Liao because he was ready to go down fighting, and Cao Cao respected that. » PanFeng -- Um, Lu Bu didn't actually beg... -- but more tried to convince Cao Cao that he would be a great asset, which Cao Cao was considering when he was swayed by what Liu Bei said. Cao Cao killed him because he was a risk, not because he "begged"; look at poor Gao Shun, who said nothing and still got executed. » WUuuu -- Cao Cao killed him on Liu Bei's advice -- there is nothing to show that he would have otherwise. » MasterLiang -- The line reads: "You are willing to forget the episodes of Ding Yuan and Dong Zhuo?" -- In other words, he said (honestly) that Lu Bu would be more dangerous an ally than an enemy and more dangerous a servant than both. And that's the truth. There is also nothing to indicate he would have showed him any mercy either, and why Cao Cao would is beyond me. Liu Bei actually made a practical suggestion for once and STILL you rip him for it. As for Bu begging, that was wrong, and I shouldn't have put it that way. But as Zhang Liao says, "Lu Bu, O fool! Death is but death, and why are you scared at it?" Bu went to his death screaming, Zhang was perfectly willing to die smiling. Tells you something about character. » guanping -- Lu Bu was not begging, he was trying to persuade his worth as a cavalry commander -- Considering Liu Bei's record after Lu Bu... he has no right to judge. » VGuyver -- perhaps -- but then again, the book seems to suggest he was cryingand wining like a little baby up to his death, we may never know the facts » guanping -- actully we do know pretty much what happend -- even in the novel, I don't think it means to come across as begging and whining. In history he just offered his services having surrendered when surronded » DongDal -- Was he tied up at the time? » guanping -- not sure, don't think he was but he might have been » DongDal -- I've just checked the SGZ bios -- And yep, he was. » guanping -- he was bound indeed -- according to Rafe de Crespigny he told his men to cut off his head when he was surronded but they couldn't bear to do it. » DongDal -- Really? -- Because it said that his men had already betrayed him. » guanping -- no some men betrayed Cheng Gong and Gao Shun, captured the two -- thus Cao Cao got in. Lu Bu asked his attendants to surrender by sending his head to Cao Cao(this would include Zhang Liao I think) but they refused. They couldn't kill thier own lord » DongDal -- Better rewards if they got him alive? » guanping -- no rewards -- it says they didn't have the heart to do it so Lu Bu surrendered himself to Cao Cao Lu Bu also went "Big ears! You are a crook!" at the end. » DongDal -- Sounds like a Noddy episode.
45 As they were going. the soldiers said, "There are two roads before us. Which shall we take?"
46 "Which is the shorter?" asked Cao Cao.
47 "The high road is the more level, but it is fifteen miles longer than the bye road which goes to Huarong Valley. Only the latter road is narrow and dangerous, full of pits and difficult."
48 Cao Cao sent men up to the hill tops to look around.
49 They returned, saying: "There are several columns of smoke rising from the hills along the bye road. The high road seems quiet."
50 Then Cao Cao bade them lead the way along the bye road.
51 "Where smoke arises there are surely soldiers," remarked the officers. "Why go this way?"
52 "Because the 'Book of War' says that the hollow is to be regarded as solid, and the solid as hollow. That fellow Zhuge Liang is very subtle and has sent people to make those fires so that we should not go that way. He has laid an ambush on the high road. I have made up my mind, and I will not fall a victim to his wiles."	» TheYellowDwarf -- Strategy -- We have seen from Cao Cao vs. Zhang Xiu how the idea of "true" and "false" played in tactics (recall that Cao Cao feigned a potential attack on the western corner of the castle when he really meant to take the east, and Jia Xu disguised commoners to guard the west and hid his troops inside civilian houses in the eastern part.) Here again there is this play of "true" and "false". Here is the conundrum we all know: what if Cao Cao thinks that Zhuge Liang thinks that Cao Cao thinks that (X120) Zhuge Liang will make fire where there aren't troops? On the big road even with overwhelming odds, one or two people may slip away, whereas it's almost impossible for Cao Cao to flee at Huarong Pass - a muddy and cramped road. » WUuuu -- its like the Princess Bride -- the game of the poisonned cup.
53 "O Prime Minister, your conclusions are most admirable. None other can equal you," said the officers.	» darkknight -- they won't be saying that in a minute » FanManZhuge -- heh heh
54 And the soldiers were sent along the bye road. They were very hungry and many almost too weak to travel. The horses too were spent. Some had been scorched by the flames, and they rode forward resting their heads on their whips. The wounded struggled on to the last of their strength. All were soaking wet and all were feeble. Their arms and accouterments were in a deplorable state, and more than half had been left upon the road they had traversed. Few of the horses had saddles or bridles, for in the confusion of pursuit they had been left behind. It was the time of greatest winter cold, and the suffering was indescribable.	» LoUiSpH -- Just like Napoleon when he goes for Russia -- The cold, the hunger... If The little man would have read ROTK, France would have probably conquered The entire Europe.
55 Noticing that the leading party had stopped, Cao Cao sent to ask the reason.
56 The messenger returned, saying, "The rain water collected in the pits makes the ground a mire, and the horses cannot not move."
57 Cao Cao raged. He said, "When soldiers come to hills, they cut a road; when they happen upon streams, they bridge them. Such a thing as mud cannot stay an army."	» BraveZilong -- As the officers look around... umm Cao, buddy, we have no army! » guanping -- he had a small army -- his point is that they can overcome the trouble
58 So he ordered the weak and wounded to go to the rear and come on as they could, while the robust and able were to cut down trees, and gather herbage and reeds to fill up the holes. And it was to be done without delay, or death would be the punishment of the disobedient or remiss.
59 So the soldiers dismounted and felled trees and cut bamboos, and they leveled the road. And because of the imminence and fear of pursuit, a party of one hundred under Zhang Liao, Xu Chu, and Xu Huang was told off to hasten the workers and slay any that idled.
60 The soldiers made their way along the shallower parts, but many fell, and cries of misery were heard the whole length of the way.
61 "What are you howling for?" cried Cao Cao. "The number of your days is fixed by fate. Anyone who howls shall be put to death."	» heartofbattle -- Cao Cao -- Cao Cao is one of my favorite people at this time. He was a great and ambitious leader. He had a drive that most leaders never had and that's what made him a great leader. Cao Cao had honor and respect for most who died and he paid tribute even to his enemies. At times, Cao Cao was very cruel to his soldiers and to people. He no doubt displayed the characteristics of a rebel. But despite all of that you have to acknowledge his leadership abilities. For one thing, Zhuge Liang even said that Cao Cao is smart and he must not be underestimated. Basically, what I'm saying is that Cao Cao is portrayed as the evil character in here and there are things Cao Cao did to make it seem that he is evil. Nonetheless, to all Cao Cao haters, you gotta give respect to him because he was just a great leader. I, personally like Cao Cao because of his ambition and how good a leader he was. Sure, he seemed like a rebel but every leader had faults right? » FanManZhuge -- like liu bei crying and sun quan getting ambushed... » WUuuu -- Why is rebel a bad thing? -- Yes, Cao Cao is a rebel, why is that a bad thing? The government before Cao Cao was inefficient and bad for the people. Then rebellions started, Cao Cao's being most effective. His administration is effective and good for the people. I mean America was founded on the principal that people have a right to rebel if the government is inefficient or corrupt, so why villify Cao Cao for this? » JiaGai -- Rebels -- Remember, Chinese society is a very structured thing. Anything disturbing the order of things is committing a grave sin. In times of chaos, this seems an absurd concept, but by virtue, people were supposed to be respectful of their place in society. Just because it's a practical thing at the moment doesn't necessarily make it "right" in the eyes of others. » WUuuu -- I know why it was bad in Chinese society -- I'm asking why we're condeming it today when we supposedly know better. I'm sure atleast some of us live in America which was founded on the principles of a right to rebel. » JiaGai -- Rebellion is an American pastime -- But that doesn't make it necessarily right, or accepted, even today. Not everyone appreciates a rebel. More conservatively minded people especially despise rebellious attitudes and actions. » WUuuu -- People tend to condemn rebels without a cause -- But Cao Cao had an obvious and self evident cause: The land was in turmoil and the government wasn inefficient. » JiaGai -- People tend to condemn rebels that oppose their beliefs, as well. -- Just because Cao Cao had a cause doesn't mean people necessarily accepted or liked it. Many didn't and many tried to get rid of him for it. Whether you like a rebel or not depends almost entirely on if you believe what they are fighting for or not. If you do, chances are you will like them. If you don't, chances are you'll despise them. Cao Cao opposed the Han, the imperial government everyone is supposed to be united under. His reasons may be sound and his goals may be just, but that doesn't mean people will appreciate the means. » MaTseng -- i wonder if everyone in this period of time believed in fate » GeneralZhaoYun -- CaoCao -- He did nothing what was unhonourable, If anyone one of you can give me one example of when he was unhonourable... I will call you Dad He took up the arms when the rebbellion broke out, he tried to assasinate dong zhuo when dong ruled the court... He was the one who formed the allied forces against Dong Zhuo. » WUuuu -- I'll take shotty on GZY's offer -- and attempt to show why in nearly any example Cao Cao makes sense. » IloveNDfootball -- I'll take that bet -- Manipulating the emperor, and murdering his empress. Not exactly upright and honorable. » WUuuu -- He didn't murder the Empress, it was a message and fully logical -- The Emperor had Cao Cao nearly assassignated, killing the Empress was a way to show the Emperor that his actions had consequences. It was a valid way of protecting hit life for Cao Cao. » IloveNDfootball -- However -- To show the Emperor that his actions had consequences? Isn't Cao Cao serving the Emperor? (Here we go again!) » WUuuu -- Cao Cao does not serve the Emperor -- But out of respect (shown in text) for the Later Han Dynasty does not make himself Emperor either. The Emperor was ineffecient and to serve him was illogical. Early in the novel Cao Cao was a good Han man, yet the Han was so inneffective it was obvious to half the leaders of China something needed to change. Cao Cao, with or without his ambition, is among the most skilled leaders in China and thus took power onto himself. He didn't ask, but he had none to ask, this wasn't a democracy, and the Emperor kept getting more and more corrupt governments with more and more rebellions. » IloveNDfootball -- However, he claims to be serving the emperor. -- Since then he is being dishonorable by claiming to serve him, but in reality only serving himself. » Kveltulfr -- He ostensibly serves the Emperor... -- because openly rebelling against the established government would cause even more turmoil. By theoretically working for the old government as Prime Minister, he attains an air of legitimacy. By keeping the Emperor on the throne, he helps keep things from degrading into complete chaos. As the Emperor was not suited to rule himself in these troubled times, Cao Cao wielded the real power, keeping the government running efficiently and working to reunify the Empire. Using a king, emperor, or 'rightful heir' as a figure head or a rallying point is a common tactic.
62 The remnant of the army, now divided into three, one to march slowly, a second to fill up the waterways and hollows, and a third to escort Cao Cao, gradually made its way over the precipitous road. When the going improved a little and the path was moderately level, Cao Cao turned to look at his following and saw he had barely three hundred soldiers. And these lacked clothing and armor and were tattered and disordered.
63 But he pressed on, and when the officers told him the horses were quite spent and must rest, he replied, "Press on to Jingzhou, and there we shall find repose."
64 So they pressed on. But they had gone only one or two miles when Cao Cao flourished his whip and broke once again into loud laughter.	» BraveZilong -- Seriously if I was one of his officers I would put duck tape over his mouth. -- He seems to bring bad luck when he laughs. Laugh 1- Brings Zhao Yun Laugh 2- Brings Zhang Fei and now... I bet he didn't laugh much after this whole event, or when he did he always looked over his shoulder. Cao Cao - Ha ha .. ha ... Is there someone there? I was only giggling, I wasn't laughing I promise, please don't hurt me. » CaoCaofan -- maybe Cao Cao is soooo smart... -- he knows that Zhuge Liang would not want him dead for the sake of Shu not being over run by Wu, and he knew that Guan Yu would be there and most likely let him go!! » MasterLiang -- Or maybe he was being overconfident. -- Or more likely Luo was once again litterally kicking him in the sack with the running gag. » Seraph -- Look out! Plot device! -- I think that Cao Cao is just shown as very overconfident in this scene. He thinks that the will of heaven protects him, and is therefore is untouchable; this does have some base considering his history. However, it is clear here that favor shifts from Cao Cao to Liu Bei, and this constant run of defeats is simply proof of that. » CaoCaofan -- After the batlle of Chi Bi? -- I think he realized his mortality more than ever here! Before Chi Bi there was very little defeat for Cao Cao; he simply conquered the north without any major losses! At Chi Bi however he was , I'll admit, totally destroyed (by Zhou Yu's plan not Zhuge Liang's!). After suffering so many losses, I think he was brought back to reality and realized that taking the south will be more difficult. And I do not think he feels untouchable because he escaped Chi Bi with his life, even though I realize some others may feel that way!
65 "What is there to laugh at?" asked the officers.
66 "People say those two, Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang, are able and crafty. I do not see it. They are a couple of incapables. If an ambush had been placed here, we should all be prisoners."	» magicman -- tempt fate -- cao cao does not seem to realise what happens when he does this....
67 Cao Cao had not finished this speech when the explosion of a bomb broke the silence, and a company of five hundred troops with swords in their hands appeared and barred the way. The leader was Guan Yu, holding his green-dragon saber, bestriding the Red Hare. At this sight, the spirits of Cao Cao's soldiers left them, and they gazed into each others' faces in panic.	» Seraph -- Cao Cao -- Cao Cao: Hahahahaha *BOOM* *Guan Yu & Co. charge out in ambush* Cao Cao: Oh shit! » guanping -- Three times he has done this? Reminds me of a pantomine in some ways
68 "Now we have but one course," said Cao Cao. "We must fight to the death!"
69 "How can we?" said the officers. "Though the leaders may have some strength left, the horses are spent."	» BraveZilong -- Oh sure, blame it on the horses.
70 Cheng Yu said, "I have always heard that Guan Yu is haughty to the proud but kindly to the humble; he despises the strong, but is gentle with the weak. He discriminates between love and hate and is always righteous and true. You, O Prime Minister, have shown him kindness in the past. If you will remind him of that, we shall escape this evil."	» FanManZhuge -- basically plead and cry » guanping -- if it works it works
71 Cao Cao agreed to try. He rode out to the front, bowed low and said, "General, I trust you have enjoyed good health."
72 "I had orders to await you, O Prime Minister," replied Guan Yu, bowing in return, "and I have been expecting you these many days."
73 "You see before you one Cao Cao---defeated and weak. I have reached a sad pass, and I trust you, O General, will not forget the kindness of former days."	» LoUiSpH -- heh... I'm just a little kid, dont hurt me! Cao Cao loose his pride right here. » guanping -- what pride? He had more to be proud about then any man of Shu
74 "Though indeed you were kind to me in those days, yet I slew your enemies for you and relieved the siege of Baima. As to the business of today, I cannot allow private feelings to outweigh public duty."
75 "Do you remember my six generals, slain at the five passes? The noble person values righteousness. You are well versed in the histories and must recall the action of Yu Gong, the archer, when he released his master Zi Zhuo, for he determined not to use Zi Zhuo's teaching to kill Zi Zhuo."	» ClarenceK -- Yu Gong & Zi Zhuo -- The story came from <Meng Zi>, one of the Four Classics which must be read by all scholars in ancient China. It happened in the Spring and Autumn period. Kingdom of Zheng sent Zi Zhuo Ru Zi to assault Kingdom of Wei. On the return trip, Wei sent Yu Gong Zhi Si in hot pursuit. As his army approached, Zi Zhuo Ru Zi said suddenly: "Heaven deserted me! I cannot lift my arm and draw the bow because of my sickness. I will die at the hand of my enemy today." Then he asked, "who is the enemy general?" His aide said: "Yu Gong Zhi Si". "Thank Heaven I shall live." The aide could not understand and enquired: "Yu Gong Zhi Si is the most famous archer in Wei. Why does my Master seem so rejoiced?" "Well, Yu Gong Zhi Si learned his archership from Yi Gong Zhi Ta, who from me. Yi Gong Zhi Ta is a virtuous man, so must be his student." Yu Gong Zhi Si caught up with the pair, and asked: "Why do you not draw your bow, Master?" "I am sick today, cannot lift my arm and draw my bow." "My teacher is Yi Gong Zhi Ta, who is your student. I must not harm you with your own teachings. However I now am performing duties of the State, and I dare not to forgo my duty so openly." With that, he drew four arrows, cut their heads off and shot them at Zi Zhuo. After that he turned away and left.
76 Guan Yu was indeed a very mountain of goodness and could not forget the great kindness he had received at Cao Cao's hands, and the magnanimity Cao Cao had shown over the deeds at the five passes. He saw the desperate straits to which his benefactor was reduced, and tears were very near to the eyes of both. He could not press Cao Cao hard.	» ManwithaGoldenEyebal -- Zhuge Liang = Cruel and Selfish -- Zhuge Liang is said to be the greatest strategist in this book, therefore he would have known Guan Yu would never kill/capture Cao Cao here! Yes, he is preventing Wu from destroying Shu, but he has single-handedly extended this time of strife. A strong Wu would have destroyed Liu Bei, taken Jingzhou, siezed much of the north, smashed the weak Liu Zhong, and probably destroy Ma Teng easily. But why do I say Zhuge Liang is cruel and selfish? Yes! He is selfish, preserving Cao Cao to save Shu. Cruelty is obvious, extending the conflict will (and does) result in millions dying, spread strife throughout the land and make peace a far off dream of the people. It could have all been shortened considerably, but NO! Cruel! Selfish! Zhuge Liang, you are bastard! » roflcopter -- yes, this is true. zhuge liang is being selfish here, but that is the point. -- he's liu bei's adviser, and he wants liu bei (not sun quan) to unify china. zhuge liang knows that if cao cao dies now, it would send the country into war between shu and wu, and wu would most likely be able to take advantage of this more easily than shu at this point. » SNDiablos -- How is he being selfish? -- There is so many times I've read notes that say he is selfish and a jerk. However there are many reasons he is not. 1: He is doing his job as an advisor to make sure Liu Bei achieves his destiny. 2: As stated above does not serve Sun Quan. 3: When he took the cities off of Wei when Wu was attacking them that was just plain smart. He outsmarted one of the so-called geniuses of the time. Besides since when is he a jerk for making sure his lord does not suffer such severe losses. In fact he didn't even lose a soldier. Trust me on this when those chances come you accept them gladly. » guanping -- Shu should be remembered for prolonging a civil war and getting called virtoius for it -- that and this description of Guan Yu makes me ill. At least he will be executed for failing in his duty*rolls eyes* » DongDal -- Cao Cao should be remembered for actually giving a reason for it. -- His betreyal of the Han is what drove Liu Bei away from him anyway. Plus we mustn't forget the plans of Wu. » guanping -- by reason -- you mean not being Liu Bei, Liu Bei want power. He can't be sole ruler under Cao Cao. Not that greatest reason in the world. As to Wu...not to sure, indepandce and then keeping Wei from beating them » DongDal -- When did Liu Bei want abseloute power? -- Throughout he's fought tooth and nail for the Han. He also fought tooth and nail against taking on title despite it being the best option. » guanping -- Cao Cao fought tooth and nail not to be Emporer -- Liu Bei was rather eager to take next Han emporer title. It is a good move that he can do, if he wins, Xian can step down for his uncle who has done great work. He keeps Han lines, it looks less bad then say Cao Cao's control did. As for Hanzhong title... I think that was more tradtion of going "oh no, please no. Oh alright." » DongDal -- Cao Cao was Emperor in all but name. -- Cao Pi took the title pretty much straight after he got power. Liu Bei needed to assume the title in order to gain legitimacy and continue the Han line. » guanping -- so was Duke Zhou, Dong Zhou, Liang Ji, Wang Mang.... ok some bad men(Liang Ji) -- some turn bad men(Dong Zhou) but someone had to be. Anyway a theory of mine regarding Liu Bei. Let us say Liu Bei won and controlled the land, he could rule Xian like a puppet or Xian could resign in favour of his uncle. Maybe why Liu Bei wanted the Han to survive. » DongDal -- How the Hell could he do that? -- He was only loosly rerlated to Xian. When Bei was with Cao Cao there was little chance for him to do that. » guanping -- I said when Liu Bei ruled the land -- a what if thing. He was still part of the Liu line(though there was some disbelif as to his claim) » DongDal -- There is a possibilty... -- But then we'd probably have the whole mess start over again. » guanping -- Xian would not have many followers -- but yes you are right, every Tom Dick and Harry would seek to make thier fortune by revolt. All in the intrests of Xian of course » DongDal -- Are you getting at me in some way? » guanping -- I hate insuliting other debaters as a rule -- and no I did not mean to insilt you. I was just agreeing, saying Liu Bei becomes emp at Xian's expense when he unite land... revolts becuase of other peoples lust for power » DongDal -- I wasn't implying that you were insulting me. -- Just that you seemed to compare Liu Bei to "Every Tom, Dick and Harry." When one of my major defences for Liu Bei was that he was related to Xian. » guanping -- oh no I was just saying that every oppertunitist would try and take advantage -- I suppose Cao Cao, Liu Bei and Sun family come under that but they where extepinal men so not really. I mean the likes of Zhang Lu, Zhang Xiu, Wang Lang and so on » DongDal -- Was Zhang Xiu still alive? -- If I was Cao Cao I'd make sure he wouln't be a threat. Not exactly murder him but perhaps he would have a tragic accident. Like taking a walk and very suddenly and accidentaly have a boulder dropped on his head. » guanping -- Zhang Xiu was not dumped off, he probably died of illness or old age -- he just dissapers from history. Not in Cao Cao's intrests for him to die in suspcoius circumstances » DongDal -- True... -- But not in his interests to let him gain any real power either. » guanping -- don't think he was the best choice for a major post -- still got a great wage » DongDal -- Perhaps Cao Cao was a good loser then. » guanping -- executing him wouldn't have done him much good -- however he was a genrous winner. Examples: Finding Cheng Gong's duaghter a husband, looking after Lu Bu's and Cheng Gong's families(he had Cheng Gong, Lu Bu and Gao Shun strangled in history.) Lady Zhen married Cao Pi and Yuan Shao's wife was well looked after. Zhang Xiu's aunt became a high up member of Cao Cao's harem » Drackor -- Wu didn't even want to be apart of China..... -- Quan's ambition was to break away from China and form his own country. The reason Wu allied with Shu to begin with was because Quan thought that Bei would be more reasonable about Wu's position if Bei was able to take down Wei. If Wei were to have taken Shu at that time, it would have been a guarantee they would have come after Wu, since they had already done so once before. » guanping -- yeah but ruling it counts -- Sun Quan can then make the Han people(or Chinese) slaves » MaTseng -- um. -- form his own country? he's chinese, i think you mean Kingdom.. not country. Just because there's a new ruling family (dynasty) does not make it a new country it's still china each kingdom was considered a country in it's own right. When the Tang ruled they were called the Tang When the Han Ruled they were called the Han When the Yuan Ruled they were called the Yuan Although it was a new ruling family it was still the same country (CHINA) » VGuyver -- don't be so sure. -- Just because the whole region is called china, doesn't make it a whole country, or a united one. China as we all know it today, has had several different forms and has had a veriation in size. China can easily be renamed int oa new country, or split up into a new country, China is merely a name, it's people are it's identity. In the end, China today could simply end up being a bunch of small indipendent countries, like those of Europe. take an example of Tibet, it was indipendent but Mao invaded and annexed it to china, but to this day, some don't see it as a part of shina but an occupied country. Aslo take a look at Europe, which had the roman empire, people thought that there would always be a roman empire, and that these territories of rome would always be known as roman. But they ceased to be roman. It's no different with China, if Sun Quan had managed to realize his dream, then who knows today if 2000 years later, China was known to be located over the nation of Wu. Like I said, China is merely the name of the current country, there is nothing stopping it from becoming Maoland, or being renamed Marxist Chinaland or some other upsurd name. » guanping -- The South didn't think they where Chinese as such » MaTseng -- okay -- Listen just because you change the form of government doesn't make it a new land Mao didn't change it because it's still china just because it's a new government doesn't make it a new place. Back then any chinese kingdom was considered it's own little country until it united china and i do believe it's a country since it has boundries and was even recgonized as a tributary state by korea and i'm sure many more there were even scholars from japan and other surronding lands claiming to have visited China! CHINA! or the current empire (the Tang CHINESE) China has never been split re-split or anything just so you realize this but when china was whole it lost and gained new land when the mongols invaded the northern half and forced the song to flee the south they were STILL CHINA just cut down to size. Let's look at the american civil war for example when the south split from the union didn't the south still consider itself AMERICAN but not part of the union? i believe they did now didn't they. Also let's look at the byzantine who weren't actually in rome but considered themselves ROMAN because they were of roman descent. » guanping -- The thing is the South didn't consider themselves Chinese
77 He pulled at the bridle of his steed and turned away saying to his followers, "Break up the formation!"	» Seraph -- Guan Yu is a mountain of goodness : P -- Still, it takes a strong sense of honor to let your archenemy go. He didn't consider the consequences if he killed him (like ZL), but rather felt he had a debt to repay. I don't generally like Guan Yu, but this is an incredibly noble action. » guanping -- Or stupid or a complete failure -- noble? Oh yes great in a time of peace » DongDal -- Very honourable action here. -- Give the man that at least. » guanping -- nope -- stupid. Now he did not know that Cao Cao dieing would be bad for Shu or I would appluad him as very smart for the PR. » Tiamatty -- Quite frankly -- Guan Yu didn't care if it was stupid. Cao Cao treated him very well, looked after him and Liu Bei's wives, and let Guan Yu return to Liu Bei. For Guan Yu to then turn around and murder Cao Cao when Cao was at his weakest state, having been soundly defeated in battle and then harassed by ambush after ambush for hours - it would've been horrible for him to do that. Stupid? Fuck that. There will be other, more honest times to eliminate Cao Cao. In times of great strife, it's important for individuals not to lose their humanity. » guanping -- Guan Yu served Liu Bei -- Guan Yu should have sent 6 officers to Cao Cao if he wanted to make up for his murderous rampage. Very human that! It was stupid! Human side is something people should keep but Cao Cao was the man capable of destroying Liu Bei still. Shu where never going to get a better chance then that. Becuase of this "noble" act Wei would be so strong that Shu never stood a chance. This act may have finished off Shu's chances.*appluads Guan Yu's idiocy* » DongDal -- What Guan Yu did. -- Helped create Shu in the first place. Wu was only letting Shu to build up its forces in order to be an ally. With Cao Cao dead and the north in chaos, how long do you think it would have been until Wu took the rest of Jing for themselves? » MaTseng -- this is totally irrevelant to the topic between you two but... -- I want to know, do people make a religion making guan yu the main god or something because i'm reading journey to the west and one of the men named there son ---- Guan-Given which he said meant he prayed to lord guan yu and asked for a son and it came true. do they have a religion for guan yu? and if so does it still exist to this day? » guanping -- Guan Yu is still worshipped, not really a relgion but just a God of honour -- Zhang Fei did more to creat Shu. As I said Guan Yu did not think of that. As to how long? Well Cao Pi was old enough succesor... awhile perhaps. » DongDal -- But Cao Cao had yet to name his successor. -- A civil war between him and his brother could have been on the cards. » guanping -- Possible though Cao Pi wanted to rule, his brother seemed content to serve -- and did so with sucess against the barbarians I belive. Cao Pi as eldest would have gotten the nod » DongDal -- Wasn't there comprtition between him and his brother? » guanping -- a bit but not to such an extent -- I think Wei court would have chosen Cao Pi as eldest and fairly able » DongDal -- But... -- Cao Pi wasn't as able as Cao Cao. There would have been a distinct difference in the outcome. » guanping -- true but with so many advisors and officers -- any rebellions would have been put down in short order. » DongDal -- Could have been. -- But there is the threat of Wu through all of this. » guanping -- Cao Ren could hold them back for long enough time -- four possiblty's here... 1: Cao Pi succedes the throne and Cao Ren holds of Wu till rebellions dealt with and Cao Pi can come and aid. 2: Cao Pi gets the throne but Wu beats Cao Ren and so rebels fight harder... Wu win. 3: Cao Zhen aids Cao Pi for time till Wu are dirven off then rebels. 4: power struggle really mucks everything up » DongDal -- I'd go for number 4. » guanping -- one or two for me » DongDal -- Well there was still Ma Teng to worry about. -- Plus the Gongsun's and Liu Bei in Jing... » guanping -- intresting idea -- Ma Teng had been firm ally of Cao Cao since Wei faced the Yuan's. However would he dare strike into main China with a young inexpirneced Cao Pi on the throne. Liu Bei in Jing was rebuilding, at the time he was pretty much out for the time being but maybe a local lord in Yi would gain promince. Liu Zhang had no milatry amibtion apart from dealing with the rebel Zhang Lu. Zhang Lu was to busy failing to kill Liu Zhang but perhaps he would move east. Gongus Du was to far away for the most part. His sucessor was ambtoius enough The other barbarian tribes where too diviveded to do then be an irratant » Yunsung -- Ma Teng was the last member of the Girdle Decree save Liu Bei. -- He also had a strong, experienced army. Had he invaded Wei just after Chi Bi (even with Cao Cao surviving the battle), he would have destroyed him. » guanping -- He invaded Wei around Guan Du and lost at Chang An. Badly -- Cao Cao still had a strong army after Chi Bi, it held off Wu and barbarian tribes, Ma Teng would have strecthed Cao Cao but no garentee of sucess I keep forgetting that the ex rebel Ma Teng signs the Girdle Decree in the novel. Kick me someone whenever I do that » DongDal -- *kicks guanping* -- There is still the officers of Wei to consider as well, how many of them would have allied and launched an attack on Wei? There were still a few loyal to the Han somewhat. » guanping -- owwwwww*goes down like a Man U player* -- Cao Pi won't despose of the emporer till he is secure... but yes a rebellion possible.
78 From this it was evident that his design was to release Cao Cao, who then went on with his officers. When Guan Yu turned to look back, they had all passed. He uttered a great shout, and Cao Cao's soldiers jumped off their horses and knelt on the ground crying for mercy. But he also had pity for them. Then Zhang Liao, whom he knew well, came along and was allowed to go free also.	» Aeroteal -- Guan Yu -- He should've killed Cao Cao.... it might've changed the tide of the war » lord_alden -- Nah. -- Changed the tide of the war for the worse. Wu, being militarily more powerful than Shu, would have invaded the north more than likely. Either that or Ma Teng/Han Sui would have taken over the north.... » Aeroteal -- if..... -- Shu could persuade Wei(at least some of them) to join them... saying that Guan Yu killed Cao Cao... even if 1/2 of Cao's army joined that would help Shu » SOLDIER -- I agree with alden... -- Yes, Wu, being superior to Liu Bei's small force (which BTW: was not Shu yet), would immediately destroy Shu. The north would erupt in a series of battles for supremacy over the area left over. But in the south, Wu is the single most powerful force, probably able to take Hanzhong, and Yizhou by itself, and not to mention Jingzhou. How would Liu Bei persuade anyone to surrender to him other than perhaps the captured Jingzhou troops? He is an underdog, his troops do not even number 100,000. People will not join him so readily as he is the disadvantaged warlord. » Rahonavis -- Guan Yu and Cao Cao -- Zhuge Liang knew it is not Cao Cao's time to perish. That's why he sent Guan Yu. However under the condition, Guan Yu could've taken Cao Cao prisoner in stead of killing him. Yet being as moral as Guan Yu was, he instead let them pass. Amazingly Guan Yu even admitted to writing up a military order so to hold himself responsible. Couldn't he at least taken them all prisoners and let Cao Cao go on his own? » IloveNDfootball -- A Poem -- . Under a thick curtain of rain The Warrior of The Dragon Blade Cut his way to the fore None could hold him back But for one The cruel arms of honor seized him And pulled him back For they had been manipulated By Sleeping Dragon For only he could control one so strong. » Blindbeggar -- Very nice -- We have many poets on this site. Anyone noticed?
79 Cao Cao, his army lost, fled to the Huarong Valley; There in the throat of the gorge met he Guan Yu. Grateful was Guan Yu, and mindful of former kindness, Wherefore slipped he the bolt and freed the imprisoned dragon.
80 Having escaped this danger, Cao Cao hastened to get out of the valley. As the throat opened out, he glanced behind him and saw only forty-seven horsemen. As evening fell, they reached Jiangling, and they came upon an army that they took to be more enemies.	» MaTseng -- wu -- wu should have pressed on into jingzhou but they missed another chance although lots of people in this have missed chances to rape someone utterly. » GeneralZhaoYun -- It was not Wu's mistake -- they simply could not abandon their post. Wei was still the superior force here, they had many fortifications along the road, and their soldiers were still numerous. And besides, they had the all knowing kongming against them, who had also set his eyes on Jingzhou.
81 Cao Cao thought the end had surely come, but to his delight they were his own soldiers and he regained all his confidence.	» Tiamatty -- Lucky little bastard -- Cao Cao is probably one of the luckiest guys in the book. How many battles now has he almost gotten killed? First, Lu Bu almost killed him in chapter 11, then again in chapter 12 with that fire attack Chen Gong came up with. Then Zhang Xiu almost killed him in chapter 16. And that's just for starters. Now, once again, he gets his ass handed to him all damned night, yet SOMEhow pulls through and survives. » DongDal -- Luck of the devil I suppose. » guanping -- he is an incredible man, he earns his luck » VGuyver -- compared to the devil -- it's funny really, speak of the devil was sort of started with him, and a guy like him, people would say he had the devils own luck. So it fits in nicely with the discription in the novel. » guanping -- speak of Cao Cao and Cao Cao shall appear -- something like that. Cao Cao was famous for his long marches
82 Cao Ren, who was the leader, said, "I heard of your misfortunes, my lord, but I was afraid to venture far from my charge, else I would have met you before."
83 "I thought I would never see you again," said Cao Cao.
84 The fugitives found repose in the city, where Zhang Liao soon joined them. He also praised the magnanimity of Guan Yu.
85 When Cao Cao mustered the miserable remnant of his officers, he found nearly all were wounded and he bade them rest. Cao Ren poured the wine of consolation whereby his master might forget his sorrows.
86 As Cao Cao drank among his familiars, he became exceedingly sad.
87 Wherefore they said, "O Prime Minister, when you were in the cave of the tiger and trying to escape, you showed no sign of sorrow. Now that you are safe in a city, where you have food and the horses have forage, where all you have to do is to prepare for revenge, suddenly you lose heart and grieve. Why thus?"
88 Replied Cao Cao, "I am thinking of my friend Guo Jia: Had he been alive, he would not have let me suffer this loss."	» _pizzlet -- Bad Comment!! -- Why exactly would you make a statement about the ignorance of your advisors just after losing a major battle when everyone is low on morale and could think about changing forces? 'Cause he's saying that all of his other advisors are incompetent compared to Guo Jia. » lord_alden -- Hrm. You're right. -- Lower the morale of your troops by speaking highly of others of yours gives them an inferiority complex. But if you play your cards right, you can get away with saying that and still be safely fortified with morale. But Cao Cao was ignorant, so that crosses that out. ~.~ » Ragnarok -- Not necessarily -- Napoleon had called his forces at the battle of Waterloo "The worst he had ever commanded" The comment had been to stir them and give them the courage of anger. I'm not saying that was Cao Cao's intention, but it's not certain his men will become depressed at these words from Cao Cao. » LiaoHua -- Also, if they would have desserted, they would have done so through the series of ambushes. -- They were all very loyal » ChaoYun -- I might be missing something. -- Weren't his advisors warning him against accepting huang gai? AND against chaining the ships together? » MasterLiang -- You can't listen to advisors! -- Killing them off is fine, but taking their advice? Nonsense! » EmperorMiki -- Advisors are useful -- Advisors are for getting the blame and dying. They are very useful. » heffalump -- I don't think it's a bad comment. -- All of Cao Cao's advisors probably knew how good Guo Jia was, so they wouldn't have taken offense to what Cao Cao just said. Plus he's drunk. » Drackor -- Guo Jia was a Mediocre advisor, so why is that people agree that he was so great? -- How often was he in the book? How often did he offer advice that someone else didn't think of as well? How often did Xun Yu also advice the same as Guo Jia? Considering Cao Cao refused to listen to his advisors, one more wouldn't have helped. He just doesn't wanna accept responsibility for this one. Who would? He outnumbered the enemy 830,000 to 50,000, which is a ratio of 17:1 and he STILL lost. Some great military mind.... » cFodder -- *ahem* Guo Jia also never lost a battle or campaign he participated in. Ever. -- Not Zhou Yu, not Sima Yi, not even Zhuge Liang may claim this to their credit. As for the morale effects - I think the most famous case is Julius Ceasar and the infamous 10th Legion. In all his armies Ceasar always praised the 10th Legion for its courage and skill in battle to the detriment of all others, and in so doing spurred the other legions on to greater and greater heights of excellence in order to compete with the glories heaped upon 10th. Depending on the mentality of your advisors, this very well may work the same way - and if it doesn't, they really don't have the mentality to be involved in military affairs anyhow and you're probably better off without them; particularly Cao Cao, who can step in as his own relatively competent advisor at any point. » Tiamatty -- Comment -- He was just being honest. There's a very good chance Guo Jia would've seen through at least a couple of the ploys, potentially allowing Cao Cao to win the day. And Cao Cao almost always listened to Guo Jia - who was almost always right. Plus, his advisors failed him miserably. Not a one of them saw through the false defection, and only two warned against a fire attack, and not very strongly at that. Cao Cao has every right to be miserable about this. » guanping -- Cao Cao took on a force of 50,000 expirenced navy with an ill one of 200,000 mostly inexpirenced -- odds are sligthly in Wu's favour...add the 50,000 just the vanguard. I think he is regretting the defeat and partly blaming the advisors. Only two advised against risk of fire.
89 He beat his breast and wept, saying, "Alas for Guo Jia! I grieve for Guo Jia! I sorrow for Guo Jia!"	» darkknight -- That is harsh... -- Cheng Yu has been right on everything in this battle. Plus he has Xun Yu, Xun You, Liu Ye, Kuai Yue and Jia Xu. He also has Sima Yi, but Cao doesn't like him. » FanManZhuge -- oh why why why did guo jia die?!?!?! oh yeah so i could blame it on someone! -- [it's not my fault. it's just guo jia wasn't there.] » GeneralZhaoYun -- It was loss -- Many say that if Guo jia might still have lived at chibi, the defeat of CaoCao would have never happened. But of course that is another assumption - Could he figure out zhuge liang?? Would Zhuge be able to anticipate guo?? - Would the chaining of ships still have occured??? - Would Huang Gai's betrayal still have succeeded?? Many questions we cannot know, but we do know is that CaoCao lost at ChiBi, worse than that could not have happened, except if Cao was slain at huarong valley » CaoZiwei -- There's no way to tell, yes. -- Cheng Yu was perfectly capable adviser. Who's to say that Guo Jia could see through it? What is lost is lost, and Cao should be more confident in the advisers he has with him then. » GeneralZhaoYun -- Isnt it Ironical -- That two dead people could have prevented two big losses for Wei and respectively Shu? If Guo Jia was alive at ChiBi (Red Cliffs) he most likely will have seen through the plot. Maybe not zhuge liangs plots, but definetly the chaining the ships plot. And maybe Guo would have seen through Kan Ze and Huang Gai aswell. All these were mentioneed in the art of War, and if Guo Jia had studied it and with his own cunning included he would have prevented ChiBi ...yes. Another one was Fa Zheng. Responisble for gaining Hanzhong for Shu. If he would have been alive at Yiling... Thats Why I think its all about fate. You cannot change fate, one is born to do wherefore he/she was destined to do. CaoCao... LiuBei... ZhugeLiang... LuBu » guanping -- Gou Jia would never have seen through it -- he was as good as Xun Yu, Cheng Yu and others. He gave good advice but nothing special. » WUuuu -- Maybe Historically, but for the Novel Guo Jia is far greater than those you mention » Shokyo -- Cao Cao trusted Guo Jia as Liu Bei trusted Zhuge Liang, bear in mind. » LuBoyan -- Personally -- I esteemed Jia Xu as much as Guo Jia, and he was still alive a Chi Bi, correct? » JiaXuAdvocate -- Jia Xu is alive & kicking at this point... He's around for a while longer... -- Just kind of under the radar. IMO Jia Xu's the most underrated character in all of ROTTK, the novel (But gee, whatta surprise, considering my screen name). » WUuuu -- Historically, like I said, you might be correct -- But in the novels case Guo Jia is not to be doubted. In a poem he is referred to as the "ablest man in the world" or something similar enough to this. I've said this before (or later, I don't remember what point in the book it was), If it isn't a character saying it and the author is putting it forth as such, then it is meant to be taken as truth. Jia Xu likely accomplished more, and be considered greater as such, but he still is not as good an advisor as Guo Jia in terms of ability as far as the novel is concerned. » JiaXuAdvocate -- Actually, I agree with you WUuuu (Woah somebody alert the authorities!)... get ready for a long one. -- O.k. I'll need to start off with a "But" (and there always is); I will clarify my point, and elaborate as such. Guo Jia is not to be doubted in his ability, for sure. Let's say out of 10, Guo Jia's average advising ability per 'advising unit' (call it AU for the rest of this post here) would be 9 (IMO). An AU may be defined as one's analysis, opinion, & recommendation on a single specific issue. Most other people in this novel would be tiny tiny, like 3 or 4 on average, so that's my reference for comparison. You know, like E.G. Guo Jia's final AU was his recommendation to wait for the 2 Yuan sons' heads to be returned... unfortunately post mortum. I'll give that one example a 9.9 AU because he was dead when it happened. So I say he gets rated a 9 on average for every AU. Now, I will humbly concede that Jia Xu may get an average 8 to 8.5 rating on every AU of his... I will also agree that if I had to summarize the way Guo Jia's ability is portrayed in this novel (e.g. in poems, confounded subjects, etc), he would get a 9 AU avg. straight up. But maybe Jia Xu's advice (implied in this novel) is only rated a 7 by the characters & dialogue in this novel... Leading him to be underrated. Hardly a poem (or any at all), or full description of his character. That is my ultimate contention... he's so darn underrated. Actually this is the impetus of what my screen name is after. Need t' represent yo! Now finally, to agree with you on another point (on # of accomplishments), along with Jia Xu's AUs being underrated, is that I would think that his advice is more prolific than Guo Jia's... due to nobody's fault but fate... Jia Xu lived much longer. Analogy to this... Guo Jia's winning record if he were to play tennis is like 45 out of 50 tournaments (and maybe 10 grand slams!) in his career (don't ask me to mention what his 5 losses were 'cause it's an arbitrary number). That's like he successfully advised 45 out of 50 AUs near perfectly. Jia Xu's record may be like 380 out of 470 tournies (and 15 grand slams)... not as good in percentage, but played many more seasons. Kinda like Guo Jia is Martina Hingis, and Jia Xu is Martina Navratilova. Hingis could defeat Navratilova on avg (another IMO), but Hingis 'retired' young, and Navratilova, jeez, is still playing (doubles, but that's where the analogy is getting wierd)! O.k. I'm done because I am feeling a little loopy. » LuBoyan -- That's the thing -- In the novel (my knowlegde of the history is limited) I always placed Jia Xu on par with Guo Jia in terms od advice. Maybe I'll go and actually count the times, but I was suprised when Cao Cao lamented so much over Guo Jia because I thought Jia Xu contibuted so much more interms of amount of correct advice pre-Chi Bi. (I can't believe I'm arguing with a guy named JiaXuAdvocate that Jia Xu is better than somebody) » JiaXuAdvocate -- I know. But I need to give credit where credit is due. -- For one example, Guo Jia gives a kingdom-changing word of advice after his DEATH! Going out with a bang... Only Zhuge Liang was on par with that kind of form. Jia Xu simply sunset into history. I kinda like that, though. But DO NOT get me wrong. I'm not saying Guo Jia or Zhuge Liang are better than Jia Xu. I hold Jia Xu's record over everybody. But I hope you understand my points above- I'm thinking of the differences in perspectives fairly subtly, but I hope I elaborated enough. Not gonna be as verbose as the last post. But then again, I haven't gone into why I believe Jia Xu was better than Zhuge Liang yet. Not tonight. » guanping -- Cao Cao was just using Guo Jia being dead as an excuse for his defeat... -- he ignored Xun You and Cheng Yu warnings. now Guo Jia was good, however not as great as people think. Cao Cao trusted Guo Jia certainly more than the rest; however he had better like Jia Xu and Sima Yi. maybe my duel with shoyko is giving me an anti Guo Jia feeling... » CaoCaofan -- i think Cao Cao's advisers would take no offense from this... -- because they probably realize because of rank and how much Cao Cao relied on him that Guo Jia was better than them. I would understand if I was in their shoes. Also they should be given a lecture; i mean look at what happened! It is their duty to do all they can to prevent these defeats, and they really didn't say much to convince Cao Cao of this defeat to be! And he is not using Guo Jia to blame; he is simply angry that it could have likely been avoided if he was alive, not actually saying that it is Guo Jia's fault. » Tiamatty -- Guo Jia -- Guo Jia had one major advantage over Jia Xu: Cao Cao trusted Guo more. There's only a couple instances where Cao Cao doesn't follow Guo's advice, and only a couple occasions where Guo was wrong (I can only think of one occasion for both, where Guo Jia advised guarding against an ambush by Lu Bu, and Cao Cao rightly predicted Lu Bu wouldn't set one up.) It's not a matter of blame - he takes the responsibility for his defeat. He simply believes Guo Jia could've saved him.
90 The reproach shamed the advisers, who were silent.	» JiaXuAdvocate -- I think it is worthy to rate the advisors based on 4 perspectives. -- . 1) How well the characters affected events (comprehensively) under their conrol in the NOVEL (ROTTK). 2) How endearing the characters were portrayed in the NOVEL (ROTTK). 3) How well the characters affected events (comprehensively) under their control in HISTORICAL context. 4) How endearing the characters are portrayed in HISTORICAL context. Just my 2 cents. » WUuuu -- I disagree (big shock) -- I really just don't care about the history for the most part. 1 and 2 I agree with though. » JiaXuAdvocate -- But it's pretty difficult to discuss one and not eventually make reference to the other -- For simplicity's sake, going with the first 2 are usually easier to pin down, since the novel is more readily available and consistent. History, however, expands beyond this realm and into another one in which these judgements may be considered to have a more objective perspective. » IloveNDfootball -- I Understand -- But, not all here have easy access to the historical sources, thus, the novel should be the primary source. » CaoCaofan -- If u rely on the novel entirely, you get a distorted and biased view of certain people. -- A good example is how Luo makes Cao Cao seem sooooo evil when he really was not that bad, and how Zhuge Liang is a super human which was not so. It is easy to access historical facts on the internet. A good site is Kongming.net » ZhaoZilongfan -- Yes. However, historical facts are written by the winners, not the losers. -- It is possible for the truth to be buried under years of fighting and turmoil. » cFodder -- ZhaoZilongfan, that's true... -- However, by and large major events have proven difficult if not impossible to entirely gloss over where recorded history is concerned. Today, we still have knowledge and details of the lives of several individuals 'erased' from history by their detractors. Isaac Newton may have tried to monopolize his invention of calculus - but we're quite aware that he wasn't alone. Further back I can't even begin to name all the egyptian pharoah's that were unsuccesfully erased, roman officials that were defamed and what not. On the other hand I agree with WUuuu to a certain extent... While I admit that interesting notes regarding the actual history during RoTK is called for - the same is not true of complaints regarding discrepencies between historical and fictional accounts. » CaoCaofan -- true! even if history itself is biased, this novel is worse. -- Think if you were Luo, and you wrote this novel, I'm sure you'd make Zhou Yun seem much better, and I'm sure you'd be a little more harsh towards those you don't care for. Like how Luo seems to like making Cao Cao an evil character! But I will admit that since this is the book where many references to characters will be from. Thus you MUST take into account historical facts so to "inform" the readers of what they're favourite chars are really like. It would be like people only playing Kessen, imagine the views people would have of the big name generals!!!
91 Next day Cao Cao called Cao Ren and said, "I am going to the capital to prepare another army for revenge. You are to guard this region and, in case of necessity, I leave with you a sealed plan. You are only to open the cover when hard-pressed, and then you are to act as directed. The South Land will not dare to look this way."
92 "Who is to guard Hefei and Xiangyang?"
93 "Jingzhou is particularly your care, and Xiahou Dun is to hold Xiangyang. As Hefei is most important, I am sending Zhang Liao thither with good aids of Li Dian and Yue Jing. If you get into difficulties, send at once to tell me."
94 Having made these dispositions, Cao Cao set off at once with a few followers. He took with him the officers who had come over to his side when Jingzhou fell into his hands.	» guanping -- excellent choices -- Xiahou Dun comptent adminstrator and good expirenced commander. Cao Ren, one of the best generals of the time and Zhang Liao... well we will all see what happend there
95 Cao Ren placed Cao Hong in charge of Yiling and Jiangling.
96 After having allowed the escape of Cao Cao, Guan Yu found his way back to headquarters. By this time the other detachments had returned bringing spoil of horses and weapons and supplies of all kinds. Only Guan Yu came back empty-handed. When he arrived, Zhuge Liang was with his brother congratulating him on his success. When Guan Yu was announced, Zhuge Liang got up and went to welcome him, bearing a cup of wine.
97 "Joy! O General," said Zhuge Liang. "You have done a deed that overtops the world. You have removed the empire's worst foe and ought to have been met at a distance and felicitated."	» Yorak -- HAHAHAHAHA!!! -- I died laughing the first time I read this. Zhuge Liang kicks ass. He is SO rotten to do this to Guan Yu... » FanManZhuge -- what a guy he knows guan yu didnt do it and still.... -- that quote could put this book in the humor section » GreenTurbanMan -- I wonder... Is Zhuge a jerk if compared to CaoCao? -- I mean.. They both seem just as mean! » CapitalisticIdeals -- Jeez, Did he take some lessons form Mi Heng or what??
98 Guan Yu muttered inaudibly, and Zhuge Liang continued, "I hope it is not because we have omitted to welcome you on the road that you seem sad."
99 Turning to those about him, Zhuge Liang said, "Why did you not tell us Guan Yu was coming?"
100 "I am here to ask for death," said Guan Yu.
101 "Surely Cao Cao came through the valley?"
102 "Yes, he came that way. But I could not help it: I let him go."	» LoUiSpH -- Bad idea! don't tell the truth! -- Just say: ummm no he didn't or Cao Ren attacked us from behind or I was having sex or Red Hare ate my saber or Just Umm? what Valley? what Ambush?
103 "Then whom have you captured?"
104 "No one."
105 "Then you remembered the old kindness of Cao Cao and so allowed him to escape. But your acceptance of the task with its conditions is here. You will have to suffer the penalty."
106 Zhuge Liang called in the lictors and told them to take away Guan Yu and put him to death.	» darkknight -- wish he was still around -- april fools day would be fun
107 Guan Yu risked life when he spared Cao Cao in direst need, And age-long admiration gained For kindly deed.
108 What actually befell will he seen in the next chapter.	» guanping -- Yes! Execute him! He broke his word, he should be executed as such like Zhang Fei in Xu » DongDal -- It would be a stupid move. -- At the moment, they have limited resources. Why execute a general when he performed an action which was noble and at the same time possibly saved you from further conflict from all sides? » guanping -- it was not noble and Guan Yu would not have known what Kongming did -- it didn't stop Liu Feng from being executed or Ma Su » DongDal -- Because they're actions cost Shu dearly. -- This action prevented further civil war and a potential invasion from Wu. » guanping -- Guan Yu wasn't thinking on those lines -- Ma Su lost tgem one campign and Liu Feng... ok that was bad. » DongDal -- Ma Su messed up the best chance of Shu gaining Chang An. » guanping -- actully Zhuge Liang had a better one but lost to Hao Zho(or whatever his name is) -- not Ma Su's fault that Kongming failed every time. Not always Kongming's fault either. Ma Su's idea was sound in theory, how was he to know it wouldn't work in real life? » DongDal -- Because he's a general. -- He's supposed to. » guanping -- it was his first battle -- even expirenced commanders make mistakes. Look at Zhang He at Han Zhong » DongDal -- No it wasn't. -- He had fought battles before against the Nanman. » guanping -- Ma Su was not at Nanman -- he gave advice on it though on keeping the Nanman's happy. » DongDal -- Well he had been with Shu for some time. -- He must have got some experience. » guanping -- not on the battlefield from any source, including SGZ which would have put fought bandits -- probably had expirence in adminstration » DongDal -- And yet he was allowed a major placement in an important campaign. -- Zhuge Liang really did screw up didn't he? » guanping -- yes he did -- Wang Ping was expirnced enough and was very talented. He did so much and got overlooked so many times by Shu. Ma Su would have been in a important postion as advisory at Jie Ting under Wang Ping but he would get expirnece » DongDal -- Sounds like Wei Yan a bit. » guanping -- True enough -- Wang Ping actully thrashed a 100,000 Wei army at Han Zhong » DongDal -- Now that's good. -- Did he annaialte them or make them retreat? » guanping -- destroyed them I belive -- he had been advised to stick it out till help arrived. Instead he destroys massive Wei army » DongDal -- Hows that for being a bad ass? » guanping -- better then Kongming managed -- he won only becuase it rained for a long time. His pusuit wasn't bad though but nothing speical. Mean I know but Wei only attacked Shu-Han three times, lost by rain, lost by its former officer Wang Ping and then won. Not bad is it? » Drackor -- Wang Ping... -- My favorite of the lesser generals. Historically, like guanping said, he was quite the general. Not only did he trounce the Wei army at Han Zhong, but if I'm not mistaken he was the historical one to put down Wei Yan during the Wu Zhang incident. When you take into account the fact that Wang Ping started off as a peasant and spent his entire life illiterate, to become the type of general he did is quite remarkable. Wang Ping had to have the war treatise studied during that time read to him. Quite an amazing guy IMO. » guanping -- He scared off Zhang He when Ma Su was beaten as well

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