««« Chapter 15 »»» Taishi Ci Fights With The Young Overlord; Sun Ce Cuts Short The White Tiger King.

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1 In the last chapter it was recorded that Zhang Fei was about to end his life with his own weapon in Xuyi.
2 But Liu Bei rushed forward and caught Zhang Fei in his arms, snatched away the sword, and threw it on the earth.
3 Liu Bei said, "The ancient had a saying: 'Brothers are as hands and feet; wives and children are as clothing. You may mend your torn dress, but who can reattach a lost limb?' We three, by the Oath of the Peach Garden, swore to seek the same death day. The city is lost, it is true, and my wives and little ones, but I could not bear that we should die ere our course be run. Beside, Xuzhou was not really ours, and Lu Bu will not harm my family but will rather seek to preserve them. You made a mistake, worthy brother, but is it the one deserving of death?"	» Explainer -- This saying is from the Book of Odes (or Shijing) » YellowSquirrel -- wive(s)? -- what are they mormon? i need to learn more about their culture before i begin to read about their history » AkiraJiao -- wives -- actually for the nobility of the country it was not uncommon to have more then one wife and several concubines besides so the reference to wives is correct at least at that time in their history » Shokyo -- I think I'd like to read the Book of Odes... -- It sounds interesting. Plus I don't want to believe that when I marry I'll become a sock or something. » Rahonavis -- Speech -- We have to think of ancient figure of speech isn't too far off the mark, modern idioms of the same isn't quite the same although one can get close to the meaning. Sworn brotherhood in Asian cultures is a huge thing. It is a matter of life and death. Brotherhood between diffferent people consists of life goals together. The bond is supposed to be so strong that it is like limbs. Wife and kids are considered exterior and can be forsaken for the "greater cause" so to speak. While this sounds like a screwed up theory it is actually a valid point. » guanping -- Under military law of the time -- Losing your base by breaking your pledge and becoming drunk is punishable by death » DongDal -- The guy at Wu Chao for example. » UsefulIdiot -- Patriarch -- Also ancient societies were much more patriarchal(not sure if it's the right expression) than nowadays. Women were often seen as possessions, or they are in a much lower class than males. Not just in the East, either. for example, according to Greek Mythology, the first women (Pandora) was created to punish men. Women were often claimed as prizes after a war is won.
4 And Liu Bei wept. His brothers were much affected, and their tears fell in sympathy.
5 As soon as the news of Lu Bu's successful seizure of his protector's region reached Yuan Shu, Yuan Shu sent promises of valuable presents to Lu Bu to induce him to join in a further attack on Liu Bei. The presents are said to have been fifty thousand carts of grain, five hundred horses, ten thousand ounces of gold and silver, and a thousand rolls of colored silk.	» _clownjeckal -- he was rich -- gees he was loaded no wonder he is so popular » _Wu Han Tian -- post -- Thus why he would think it such an insult to be attacked by Liu Bei last chapter I guess.
6 Lu Bu swallowed the bait and ordered Gao Shun to lead forth fifty thousand troops. But Liu Bei heard of the threatened attack, so he made inclement weather an excuse to moved his few soldiers out of Xuyi for Guangling, before the attacking force came up.	» darkknight -- 50,000 lu bu must have been building his army or liu bei's troops surrendered to him » guanping -- um why does he need an escuse to avoid battle? » JiaGai -- Possibly, he doesn't want to give away the fact he knows about the attack.
7 However, Gao Shun demanded the promised reward through Ji Ling, who put Gao Shun off, saying, "My lord has gone away. I will settle this as soon as I can see him and get his decision."
8 With this answer Gao Shun returned to Lu Bu, who could not decide what to do.
9 Then came a letter from Yuan Shu:
10 "Although Gao Shun had gone to attack Liu Bei, yet Liu Bei had not been destroyed, and no reward could be given till he was actually taken."	» Laguna Cottage -- Yuan Shu backs away from a very good deal. -- Shouchun is well-known for its rich resources. And Yuan Shu is a adventurer, who is bold enough to make himself emperor. Yet he grudges a small price to eliminate Liu Bei. » _Sephiroth -- Please understand... -- Yuan Shu doesn't have the warriors to beat off Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. » Seproth -- well actually -- if u think about it techincally he has Lu Bu under him and we know Lu Bu can beat off Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. As long as Liu Bei doesn't jump into the fray, Lu Bu will probaly win. So Yuan Shu can just offer Lu Bu more gold and stuff and say that if he kills off Guan Yu and Zhang Fei he'll send him more, and we know Lu Bu will do anything for a small amount of Gold and a horse or two *of course i'm speaking of Red Hare* » LiaoHua -- Yes Lu Bu could beat the brothers but -- Yuan Shu did have Ji Ling, and he was no sloutch; remember he only lost to Guan Yu after 30 bouts and he only wanted a rest
11 Lu Bu railed at what he called the breach of faith and was inclined to attack Yuan Shu himself.
12 However, his adviser, Chen Gong, opposed this course, saying, "You should not. Yuan Shu is in possession of Shouchun and has a large army, well supplied. You are no match for him. Rather ask Liu Bei to take up his quarters at Xiaopei as one of your wings and, when the time comes, let him lead the attack, both south and north. Then Yuan Shu and Yuan Shao will fall before you, and you will be very powerful."	» Laguna Cottage -- Alliances -- The alliances of Lu Bu-Liu Bei, Cao Cao-Liu Bei, Lu Bu-Yuan Shu always evolve amazingly. This may be one of the most interesting deals in ROTK.
13 Finding this advice good, Lu Bu sent letters to Liu Bei asking him to return.
14 After the flight of Liu Bei, Yuan Shu attacked Guangling and reduced Liu Bei's force by half. When the messenger from Lu Bu came, Liu Bei read the letter. He was quite content with the offer, but his brothers were not inclined to trust Lu Bu.
15 "Such a dishonorable man must have a motive," said Guan Yu and Zhang Fei.	» guanping -- Everyone would have a motive for taking them in -- Using them for battle might be one » SNDiablos -- hmm, a line from star wars: "How is more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?" -- This is like this situation. It would be more dishonorable to not let him in. » DongDal -- Perhaps it is more dishonorable when you examine the motives behind their behaviour -- Lu Bu betrayed Dong Zhuo for the Hans. Zhang Fei attacked Lu Bu because he saw him as a threat to Liu Bei. Who was the more honorable in that respect? » Drackor -- This is why going against society's standards is bad... -- In Lu Bu's time there was a set standard for behavior. Lu Bu violated those standards and people knew it, and judged him because of it. Lu Bu's past deeds made him a threat whether he was or not. He was a victim of his own cricumstance. This is why Zhang Fei does the things he does.
16 "Since he treats me kindly, I cannot but trust him," replied Liu Bei.	» LiaoHua -- Liu Bei doesn't see the evil in people » guanping -- so kind taking your city
17 So Liu Bei went back to Xuzhou. Lu Bu, fearing that Liu Bei might doubt his sincerity, restored Liu Bei's family; and when Lady Gan and Lady Mi saw their lord, they told him that they had been kindly treated and guarded by soldiers against any intrusion, and provisions had never been wanting.
18 "I knew he would not harm my family," said Liu Bei to Guan Yu and Zhang Fei.	» _Deruki -- Really, after all this, Lu Bu doesn't seem like such a bad guy, like Dong Zhuo. » Seproth -- yha -- i think alot of ppl hate him merely because of his alliance with Dong Zhuo when u get right down to it Lu Bu probaly wasn't even that bad *unless u count killing thousands of soldiers bad then Lu Bu is indeed a very bad man* » Ragnarok -- Wrong. -- He kept them alive for fear Liu Bei would turn against him. That was an act of kindness that cost him little. Until he takes an arrow on the face for Liu Bei, im still inclined to belive he has no intention of being a good person. It's not that he was a bad person, I just consider his acts of betrayal a bad thing. » Shokyo -- Have you ever read the story of a test he takes when he's in his late teens? -- His teacher was teaching him how to use the lunar spear, and it had 72 moves in it. Half of these were of man, the other half of god. To make sure he was worthy of learning the moves of God, his teacher set him a test to see if he was honest. He failed. And his teacher was right (I can't remember his name); he never did anything good. » Tyler -- Lu Bu -- I would like to have the name of that book. anyways would you want to have lu bu in your dynasty? No. well if you don't trust him then he's a bad guy. » toocold -- lu bu -- the thing with lu bu is he wants to be in power. In the end i dont think he makes as many betrayals as liu bei, so who is worse there? Also just because he's an inept leader, doesnt make him such a bad buy. Alot of rulers do a whole lot worse than anything lu bu does. Cao Cao for instance has 2 people beaten to death. Lu Bu is a poor leader, but not altogether horrible. He has is own ambitions, but cant take good advice. Not everyone who cant take advice and has no leadership qualities is a bad guy. This shows benevolence on his part, and yes it cost him little but it was still a courtesy. As for killing soldiers in the field, in war time as a culture and in fact a species, we seem to have accepted killing during warfare. The christian holy wars for example, the ten commandments clearly state thou shall not kill, not thou can kill but only if its during a battle and its honorable or in cases of justifiable vengeance. The point is, comparatively Lu Bu isn't too bad of a guy. If being self serving and and ruthless in his pursuit of his goal, he is at least no worse than cao cao, and he doesnt lie about how he is like some ppl coughliubeicough. » darkknight -- when liu bei leaves his lords he doesn't kill them -- liu bei only leaves people when he finds fault with them. why does everyone have a dig at him? » LiaoHua -- True -- And all the other main people at the time already had land; if they were in Liu Bei's position, they'd have done almost the same thing. I mean do u think Cao Cao would have stayed serving Lu Bu or Yuan Shao? » guanping -- Lu Bu killing his former leaders -- Some generals seem to do this not just Lu Bu. Besides the second time was for love which can blind anyone and most people would have killed Dong anyway. » lethalinjection -- Lu Bu indeed -- hmmm. Honestly, i don't think Lu Bu is too smart so far. First he betrays his ruler, kills him, and joins Dong Zhuo, only because Dong Zhuo gives him a horse that is really ghetto. Then he kills Dong Zhuo, because he is moved by Wang Yun's proposal. Lu Bu tends to be swayed easily. Now, as you can see he is being led by Chen Gong, who is quite a strategist. Getting Lu bu on or off your or someone else's side, is ez as taking candy from a baby. You: Pssstt Lu Bu, I got the newest edition of playstation magazine, now all you have 2 to is randomly attack all ur leaders and generals. Lu Bu: hmmmm, seems like it's in my best interest. Lol
19 However, Zhang Fei was not pleased and would not accompany his brothers into the city when they went to express their thanks. He went to escort the two ladies to Xiaopei.
20 At the interview Lu Bu said, "I did not wish to take the city, but your brother behaved very badly, drinking and flogging the soldiers, and I came to guard it lest some evil should befall."
21 "But I had long wished to yield it to you," said Liu Bei.
22 Thereupon Lu Bu wished to retire in favor of Liu Bei who, however, would not hear of it. Liu Bei returned and took up his quarters in Xiaopei, but his two brothers would not take the situation kindly and were very discontented.
23 Said Liu Bei, "One must bow to one's lot. It is the will of Heaven, and one cannot struggle against fate."
24 Lu Bu sent presents of food and stuffs, and peace reigned between the two houses.
25 In Shouchun, Yuan Shu prepared a great banquet for his soldiers when it was announced that Sun Ce had subdued Lu Gang, the Governor of Lujiang. Yuan Shu summoned the victor, who made obeisance at the foot of the hall of audience. Yuan Shu, sitting in state, asked for details of the campaign and then invited Sun Ce to the banquet.	» Seproth -- *Gasp* -- Sun Ce is in this book, who'd have thought. i mean where the hell has he been the last 8 chapters while every1 was at war, making alliances, breaking them. seriously these have been good chapters and Wu have done nothing » Super Dian Wei -- I'll tell you where he was in the past 8 chaps... -- he was growing getting off his moms tit. If you trace the time to the beginning of the book from now, Sun Ce was like 5 during the yellow turban rebellion. I don't think he was too focused on starting an empire at that point. » JiaGai -- Of course he's in the book. He's rather important to the genesis of Wu, after all. » Shokyo -- Lil' reason why Wu hasn't done anything... -- It doesn't exist yet. Bummer huh? (Well, at least I think it hasn't been founded yet) » LiaoHua -- It hasn't -- I believe Liu Yong, and his pals own the territory of Wu currently » DragonAtma -- Well... after Sun Jian died, Sun Ce most likely was getting a new base of operations. -- You can't really invade an entire province when you only have chinese Liechtenstein. » lethalinjection -- Chinese Lichtenstein? -- Lmao, Dragonatma haz it dead on. damn, man. Wow a recent post too. Sun Ce was basically working under Yuan Shu. You may have recalled Sun Jian found the Imperial Seal.... Well, let's put it this way. Sun Ce didn't really care too much about it, and Yuan Shu really wanted to become the emperor and needed say... an imperial seal to do it. Catch my drift.
26 After the unhappy death of his father Sun Jian, Sun Ce had returned to the lower region of the Great River, where he had devoted himself to peaceful ends, inviting to his side good people and able scholars. Afterwards, when a quarrel broke out between his mother's brother, Governor Wu Jing of Dangyang, and the late Imperial Protector of Xuzhou, Tao Qian, Sun Ce removed his mother with all the family to Que, he himself taking service under Yuan Shu, who admired and loved him greatly.	» JiaGai -- Sun Ce and Yuan Shu -- Well, that must hurt, having nowhere to go but serving the man that screwed his father over. » Shokyo -- post -- Yuan Shu says something like "If I had a son like Sun Ce, I should die without regret." Cute huh? ^-^ » Super Dian Wei -- post -- If Sun Ce were my kid, the first 17 years would be hell, as he would get suspended from school for fighting too many times to keep track of. But after that, he would take over the entire southeast portion of the united states, and I would get a big, comfy, plantation retirment home. So I guess I would die without regrets too.
27 "If I had a son like Sun Ce," said Yuan Shu, "I should die without regret."	» Shokyo -- Aha! -- There we go! » drunkmastrZhangFei -- o.o -- For some reason I see Sun Ce as those snot nosed nobles that think they're better than everyone else so wouldn't try to fight with everyone else, and then take everything over when he gets older cause he's spoiled and he wants everything
28 Yuan Shu appointed Sun Ce Commander and sent him on various expeditions, all of which were successful. After this banquet to celebrate the victory over Lu Gang, Sun Ce returned to his camp very bitter over the arrogant and patronizing airs of his patron. Instead of retiring to his tent, Sun Ce walked up and down by the light of the moon.
29 "Here am I, a mere nobody, and yet my father was such a hero!"	» ladyphoenix -- If I were Sun Ce, I'd wait to have a strong army beneath him... -- And then kick Yuan Shu's arse... » darkknight -- sun ce -- he only has 2-4000 men. yuan shu has about 120,000 even though ce has cheng pu and whoever he would still lose
30 And he cried out and wept in spite of himself.	» MaChaChao -- Awww. Don't cry Sun Ce... -- You get to help build a nice big empire when you're all done.
31 Then suddenly appeared one who said, laughing loudly, "What is this, Sun Ce? While your noble father enjoyed the light of the sun, he made free use of me. If his son has any difficulty to resolve, why does he not refer it to me also instead of weeping here alone?"
32 Looking at the speaker Sun Ce saw it was Zhu Zhi, a native of Dangyang, who had been in Sun Jian's service. Sun Ce then ceased weeping, and they two sat down.
33 "I was weeping from regret at being unable to continue my father's work," said Sun Ce.
34 "Why stay here bound to the service of a master? The Governor of Dangyang is in distress. Why not get command of an army under the pretense of an expedition to relieve Wu Jing? Escape the shadow of Yuan Shu and take control of Dangyang, then you can accomplish great things."
35 While these two were talking, another man suddenly entered, saying, "I know what you two are planning, Noble Sirs. Under my hand is a band of one hundred bold fellows ready to help Sun Ce in whatever he wishes to do."	» drunkmastrZhangFei -- "Wow you need an army? What a coincidence I have one right here!" » LiaoHua -- He says 100! -- Wow we can conquer the world with 100 soldiers. Maybe if they were 100 Lu Bus or Guan Yus but c'mon thats not much to brag about » Laguna Cottage -- You can take a small town first, then recruit when you can tax. » guanping -- A hundred men is a hundered men, don't knock it when your starting up an army
36 The speaker was one of Yuan Shu's advisers named Lu Fan, from Runan. They three then sat and discussed schemes.	» Cynoc -- Kind of seems familiar doesn't it? Like the three brothers...
37 "The one fear is that Yuan Shu will refuse to give you the troops," said Lu Fan.	» Cynoc -- "Lord Yuan, can you give me 10,000 men so I can conquer all of the south in the Sun family name?" -- Come on... » MaTseng -- BRIBE! -- Yuan Shu: -woof- -woof- i smell bribe i smell bribe woof woof where is it where is it!? Sun Ce: here boy, here's an imperial seal! come and get it! Yuan Shu: -chases it- TAKE WHAT YOU WANT! Sun Ce: goood boy! » guanping -- Well, there were rebels and land in the south... Sun Ce was a comptent commander... -- Why not send him down there to stregthen your own land? After all his father had been a good friend and ally
38 "I still have the Imperial Hereditary Seal that my father left me: That should be good security."	» _ToanNguyen -- Sun Ce was a bigger hero than his father Sun Jian was. -- He knew how to let go an object like the Emperial Seal to get the troops for his future plan. That is very brave and smart. » Shokyo -- This is just me... -- But I don't believe there is such a thing as a bigger hero. You may be right ToanNguyen, but I personally believe they will achieve what they will, and they'll hopefully be remembered for it. Sun Jian had his moments. No offence to you, I'm just offering my opinion... ^-^ » Ragnarok -- Explain that to me. -- Sun Jian at a young age, was also intelligent and strong. He overcame a band of pirates by pretending a band of civilians were an organized military. Secondly, Sun Jian was the one who who overcame Hua Xiong, and took the seal from Luoyang. He had a large group of volunteers from the land of Wu under his control, and quite some land to his name. He had no use to exchange them. Furthermore, he kept it. Was that because he knew one day his children may need it? That's a possibility. » JiaGai -- However -- Sun Jian planning for his children? He was young and nothing in his personality suggests he was that far sighted. Moreover, he was an ambitious general and knew what keeping the seal meant. Also, he had no intentions of dying and leaving everything to Sun Ce the way he did. As for land, if Sun Jian was so well off why was his son forced to leave and serve Yuan Shu? That makes no sense whatsoever, as Sun Ce is just as ambitious as his father. Had he stable lands, he wouldn't bother. » Explainer -- Sun Jian has many enemies -- When he died, his enemies jumped in like a pack of wolves. Sun Ce has a governor uncle who is still fighting in the south. My guess is Sun Jian was really a very ambitious man, and few people like him. Yuan Shu was right to refuse supplying Sun Jian's troops. If we read back, we will see the reason behind that move more clearly: Yuan Shu did not want to see the empire exchange Dong Zhuo for Sun Jian. Aristocracy in old China is not very strong. Due to cutthroat political environment, family influence vanishes easily once the mainstay is gone. Sun Ce has been seeking refuge with Yuan Shu, who is the most powerful lord in the south right now. » ZhangDun -- Don't forget, JiaGai... -- Sun Ce wasn't really that old when Old Man Jian passed away. He probably wouldn't have had the strength to hold on to what lands Sun Jian did have... especially lands so far away from the other powers of the north who would probably be willing to assist with problems. » lethalinjection -- Sun Jian -- How dare any of u deny Sun Jian his glory. He was such a great, noble, and brave leader. Unfortunately most people when thinking of the 3 kingdoms, really only think of Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Lu Bu, etc., and not enough credit is given to Wu. In Dynasty Warriors they made Sun Jian, an absolutely horrible officer. Sun Jian was extremely brave and extremely strong, as was shown when the coward Huang Zu used a rockslide to destroy him. He fought at the head of his army, to give support to his soldiers.( and about the Imperial Seal thingy, i think it's funny that when Sun Jian died, Liu Biao, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, etc. just dropped the whole thing. LOL ) » WUuuu -- No one says he is not brave or strong -- the question is whether he should be leading or just a general. I'd say he's better served as a general. I'd say he'd be an amazing general with his skill and strength, but an ideal leader should be safe on the back lines, trusting his generals to support his soldier on the front lines. Oh and Huang Zu isn't a coward for killing him with a rockslide. To destroy the enemy without fighting and risk to your own men is the best way to win.
39 "Yuan Shu earnestly desires that jewel," said Zhu Zhi. "He will certainly lend you troops on that pledge."
40 The three talked over their plans, gradually settling the details. Not many days after Sun Ce obtained an interview with his patron.
41 Assuming the appearance of deep grief Sun Ce said, "I have been unable to avenge my father. Now the Imperial Protector of Yangzhou, Liu Yao, is opposing my mother's brother, and my mother and her family are in danger in Que. Wherefore I would borrow a few thousands of fighting men to rescue them. As perhaps, Illustrious Sir, you may lack confidence in me, I am willing to deposit the Imperial Hereditary Seal, left me by my late father, as a pledge."	» atomicwillie -- sun ce and lu bu? -- im a little confused here. if Lu Bu is getting the favor of Yuan Shu and now Sun Ce is getting favor from Yuan Shu, does that mean that they are (for now at least) under Yuan Shu's control? i thought Wu disliked Yuan Shu because he screwed them over at Tiger Trap pass (Hu Lao gate) » Shokyo -- Actually, I think Yuan Shu is the one under Sun Ce's control -- Sun Ce was an excellent general, and Yuan Shu wanted to keep him in his service, and he was quite fond of Ce, so in a way, Yuan Shu was under Sun Ce's control. Yuan Shu said something to the extent of "If I had a son like Sun Ce, I should die without regret." Sun Ce really doesn't have anywhere else to go, and where better than Yuan Shu anyway? He's powerful and wealthy, and doesn't have much of a choice other than to take him in. Sun Ce was strong leader, so it would be foolish to reject him anyway. Plus, since he wronged Sun Jian, he was indebt to him in a way, and since Sun Jian is dead, the best way to repay him for the withholding supplies things is to take care of his son. See~?
42 "Let me see it if you have it," said Yuan Shu. "I do not want the jewel really, but you may as well leave it with me. I will lend you three thousand troops and five hundred horses. Return as soon as peace can be made. As your rank is hardly sufficient for such powers, I will memorialize to obtain for you higher rank with the title of General Who Exterminates Brigands, and you can soon start."	» guanping -- I don't want the seal -- of course you don't » _Cold -- Ranks -- Do they just make these titles up or what??? "I name you... er... General Who... um... Does Cool Stuff With Underpants!" Come ON people, really. » heartofbattle -- lol -- lol thats funny » Kelpie -- At last! -- Someone else who finds these long, clumsy titles ridiculous! » Rahonavis -- Titles -- Keep in mind the titles are translations. It is no different than General of the Left Flank, or General of the Vanguard. The titles are written this way because it denotes the persons accomplishment therefore a title:... which is "General" + what his achievements were. » LiaoHua -- Sun Ce's title -- General who bribed Yuan Shu to give him troops would suit him better » MaMengQi -- Translation problem. -- actually there are only two chinese characters for all general titles. Usually it is an eulogy of the general. It is hard to translate too. » atomicwillie -- well, i guess that makes me "General who struggle with factoring quadratic trinomials"!
43 Sun Ce thanked his patron most humbly and soon put the army in motion, taking with him his two new advisers and his father's generals---Zhu Zhi, Lu Fan, Cheng Pu, Huang Gai, Han Dang, and others.
44 When Sun Ce reached Linyang, he saw a body of troops in front of him, at their head a dashing leader of handsome and refined mien. As soon as this commander saw Sun Ce, he dismounted and made obeisance. It was Zhou Yu from Shucheng.	» Laguna Cottage -- Awesome combination » _Sam B. -- Enter Zhou Yu -- Sun Ce and Zhou Yu Reunite. Zhou Yu was often complimented by his good looks. Back then, it wasn't unusual that men complimented one another about their attractiveness. » _TheNovak -- That's actually kind of ironic, considering all the hand-holding and weeping... :-D » _Tsao Hsueh-Chin -- Gay Lovers -- Informed by "Dream of the Red Chamber" by Tsao Hsueh-Chin, Sun Ce and Zhou Yu are widely believed to be lovers. Homosexuality was not uncommon and from my studies, appear to be widely accepted and seen as normal. For example, male actors often had rich male lovers to care for them. » _anonymous -- Unique approach -- HAHAHA! I would want to see how people would react to homosexuality in three kingdoms games! » Seproth -- Sun Ce and Zhou Yu -- i don't think they were full out homo's but more bi *since most asians back then were bi not gay* and i believe they were lovers but also had interest in women » Bofuthegreat -- bah, u guys, they married the qiaos!! comon » Shokyo -- Me being dumb -- What's a mien? Is it some sort of noodle? » JiaGai -- Mien -- It means "manner" or "appearance" so it basically says he was a pretty good lookin' dude. » LiaoHua -- Question -- Are we going to have this conversation every time two male characters compliment each other and hold hands? » JiaGai -- Apparently. -- Because the readers seem to be highly interested in possible homosexuality between these people. » Apachetears -- rofl
45 When Sun Jian was opposing the tyrant Dong Zhuo, he moved his family to Shucheng where the Zhou family had lived. And as Zhou Yu and Sun Ce were of the same age all but two months, they became exceedingly good friends and sworn brothers, Sun Ce being the elder in virtue of his two months' seniority. Zhou Yu was on his way to visit Sun Ce's uncle, Governor Wu Jing of Dangyang, when the happy meeting took place.	» DXMZerO -- Huh? -- I thought that Zhou Yu was a few years older than Sun Ce? » Super Dian Wei -- (OLD MAN VOICE) That should teach you hooligans what happens when you assume! » Shokyo -- Old man ish scarey *cry cry* » darkknight -- in the games -- zhou you is given a deep machure voice while sun ce acts like a 5 year old with an army, so most would assume zhou yu is older. » WuTugu -- never assume because dien wei will have a go lol -- Zhou Yu sounds proper weird i think in dw games...and sun ce even weirder... its funneh to hear them babble. » Shokyo -- Dynasty Warriors voice acting -- Zhou Yu is obviously intelligent, so they've assigned a voice actor who sounds intelligent, at least in DW4; in DW3 he sounds like he has something stuck in his throat. As for Sun Ce, he was 17 when Sun Jian died, he wasted away in his mid twenties, and note the "little" part of "Little Conqueror." Basically, they're aiming for someone who sounds young, teenage-ish, and also brash. I think the voice acting in DW4 is significantly better (mainly coz DW3's was AWFUL) and even though Xiao Qiao still sounds like a stupid cheerleader, you don't have to strain your ears to hear her and she can actually act. » LiaoHua -- lol -- Yea Xiao Qiao says "W-U WU WU GOOOO TEEAAAMM" » guanping -- and all the men want to sleep with her » DragonAtma -- Hey, it beats Kessen 2, where they gave Zhou Yu an *ahem* gender change. » TomMurch -- Kessen 2 - why? -- A fine game, but why base it partly on real life and then mess it up with Gargants, the Mandate of Heaven, Diao Chan dating Liu Bei and frog-phobias? The real story is good enough, and a new fictional story would have been less confusing. » guanping -- it was a great and amusing story -- Brilliant game, one of my favs
46 Naturally Sun Ce confided his projects and inmost ideas to his friend, who at once said, "I shall put my whole life and energy to serve you to reach that grand goal."
47 "Now that you have come, the design is as good as accomplished," said Sun Ce.
48 Zhou Yu was introduced to Zhu Zhi and Lu Fan.
49 Zhou Yu said, "Do you know of the two Zhangs of Guangling? They would be most useful people in working out your schemes."
50 "Who are they, the two Zhangs?" said Sun Ce.
51 "They are men of transcendent genius who are living near here for the sake of tranquillity in these turbulent times. Their names are Zhang Zhao and Zhang Hong. Why not invite them to help you, brother?"
52 Sun Ce lost no time in sending letters and gifts, but they both declined. Then he visited them in person, was greatly pleased with their speech and by dint of large gifts and much persuasion, got them to promise to join him. Sun Ce appointed them both Counselors and Generals.	» guanping -- virtue only goes so far -- look how they abandoned peace. Still waht a coup for the Suns, these two Zhangs where a good addition to the army
53 The plan of the attack upon Yangzhou Region was the next matter for discussion. The Imperial Protector, Liu Yao, was of Donglai, a scion of the imperial family and brother of the Imperial Protector of Yanzhou, Liu Dai. Liu Yao had long ruled in Yangzhou and headquartered in Shouchun. But Yuan Shu had forced him to flee to the southeast of the Great River. He retired to Que and now was battling with Wu Jing in Linyang.	» darkknight -- cao cao basically owns yanzhou, not liu dai
54 Hearing of the meditated attack on him, Liu Yao summoned his generals to take counsel.
55 Said General Zhang Ying, "I will take an army and entrench at Niuzhu. No army can get past that, whatever its strength."	» TomMurch -- Niuzhu -- What is this place, and why was it thought to be impenetrable?
56 Zhang Ying was interrupted by another who shouted, "And let me lead the van!"
57 All eyes turned to this man. It was Taishi Ci who, after helping Kong Rong raise the siege of Beihai, had come to serve Liu Yao.	» book lord -- wasnt his name lui yong? » _Voodoo Chile -- Yes. -- In the game Dynasty Warriors 3 under Taishi Ci's "History", his name is translated as Lui Yong. Just like Zhao Zilong - Zhao Yun.. » _2 -- uhh ZiLong is Zhao Yun's style name.. » kdebonair -- style name -- what's a style name and why would it be used as opposed to your normal name? » Zhou Yu of Wu -- Style names -- The Chinese sometimes even had more than one style name, from what I've read, but it is sort of an epithet. The style names are more formal and respectful of people. Zhuge K'ung M'ing, Zhou Gongjin. They simply sound more ornate and (I could be corrected here) have different meanings. I can't remember, but I think Zilong was "little dragon" which would be a mighty compliment to any warrior. » JiaGai -- Correct -- I personally know almost no Chinese, but I've been able to learn at least a few things from reading these posts. Zilong does mean little dragon. If I remember right, style names were self-chosen, something an educated man does. And considering that almost every single person in the novel HAS a style name, it means the "stupid" guys like Lu Bu and Zhang Fei were well educated as well. » Super Dian Wei -- It's like Shaq. -- People call him by his real name or Shaq, or even Shaq daddy. It just caught on. » Shokyo -- names -- I found this thing ages ago where you could make your own style name. Can't remember what the address was though. My style name was something like "Nui E Lang". Uh... answers on a postcard? » Yorak -- style names -- Style names were kind of like nicknames, but more formal. If someone was of a higher social station than you, you referred to them by their style name; if they were of a lesser station, or a friend, you could refer to them by their given name. I believe I read somewhere that Guan Yu and Zhang Fei were having fits because Ma Chao kept calling Liu Bei "Bei," instead of his style name of "Xuande..." » WenChoung -- Also... -- Just to add another note...My parents told me that when someone was married (my guess is only males), they took on a style name. » Super Dian Wei -- I guess that really tells you something about how the "sleeping dragon" treated his lady... » atomicwillie -- oh god not again -- it's a long post about (almost) absolutely nothing. » Shokyo -- And this is us going into a small detail we think we all need to know about -- This is a big book about a big country a long long time ago. There's a lot of reading between the lines you need to do to really understand it. » TheYellowDwarf -- Style Names -- Style names are names given to a man upon reaching his twentieth birthday by one's elder or mentor. The style name "inteprets" the young man's given name in a certain way (e.g. Zhao Yun's Yun=cloud, Zilong's Long=dragon). Style names are not self-chosen and only given to males, although in educated and upper class families women are given style names as well. Zhuge Liang's style name is Kongming. Liang means "bright", and Kongming means "very bright". There is no western equivalent of style names as far as I know. Style names are only used among equals, but one can never address himself by his style name. A person never addresses his superior by his given name or style name. A person's superior's given name (ruler, father, etc.) is almost "sacred". One example I can think of is during Sima Zhao's reign, the Zhaoling prefecture, which shares the same character, is changed to Shaoling. Ma Chao called Liu Bei by his style name, which is why he only got anger from Guan Yu & Co. If he called Liu Bei "Bei", he's on an express train to Hades. "Sleeping Dragon" is Zhuge Liang's "title", which is made up by himself. Usually they are cool sounding names similar to a person's pseudonym, like "Ludacris". And the person Taishi Ci goes to serve is "Liu Yao", not "Liu Yong". » Yunsung -- Wow, thanks YellowDwarf. -- That's some good stuff, there. Glad to see someone who actually knows a whit about Chinese culture.
58 Hearing him offer to undertake the hazardous post of van leader, Liu Yao said, "But you are still young and not yet equal to such a charge. Rather stay by my side and await my orders."
59 Taishi Ci withdrew in disappointment.	» _GuanYuofShu -- Mistake -- That was a mistake. Taichi Ci is one of the greatest Wu generals of all time. And he wouldn't even let him lead the van. Well... at that point he wasn't much regarded as a great hero... cause he wasn't, well not at that time. All he had done was show his skill as a horseman, and helping Kong Rong » guanping -- still a bad descion -- He's willing to take it so why not? better than somone who will flee from battle. Let him go as officer of Zhang Ying maybe? » JiaGai -- It's a catch-22 type situation. -- Taishi Ci had no merit to his name, thus no real battle experience. Nobody trusts an unproven warrior. However, to prove yourself, you have to fight, but he isn't experienced enough to be given a chance. » lethalinjection -- Taishi Ci and Zhang Ying -- ..... How do u not think that Taishi ci was not experienced. He was surrounded, and he fought off the people surrounding him. Taishi Ci was kicking ass. Anywayz Zhang Ying waz a very experienced general under Liu Yong, from what i heard anywayz. So i don't see why Zhang Ying shouldn't be able to lead... » WUuuu -- one battle does not experience make » Tiamatty -- Taishi Ci -- They know he's one of the greatest warriors of the time. They don't know how effective he'd be as a general. Just because he can slaughter people by the dozens, doesn't mean he can lead well.
60 Soon Zhang Ying led his army to Niuzhu, where the stores of grain located. When Sun Ce approached, Zhang Ying went to meet him, and the two armies faced each other above the Bullock Rapid. Zhang Ying roundly abused his opponent, and Huang Gai rode out to attack him. But before the combat had proceeded far, there arose an alarm of fire in Zhang Ying's camp. Zhang Ying turned back, and then Sun Ce advanced in full force, compelling the enemy to abandon their possession. The defeated general fled to the hills.
61 Now the incendiaries who had brought about this result were two, named Jiang Qin from Shouchun and Zhou Tai from Jiujiang, who in these turbulent times had got together a band of kindred spirits and lived by plundering the country along the Great River. They knew Sun Ce by reputation as a man who treated able people very liberally and wished to join him. So they came with their band, three hundred strong, and helped him in this way as an introduction. Sun Ce welcomed them and gave the leaders rank. After taking possession of the stores of all kinds abandoned by the runaways, and enlisting four thousand of those who surrendered into his own ranks, Sun Ce moved forward to attack Shenting.	» _TheNovak -- Zhou Tai~! -- Allow me to be the first person to mark out for Zhou Tai, one of the new characters added to Koei's Dynasty Warriors 4. The DW4 Tai is probably completely different from the real-life one, but hey, he's easily the coolest new character in the game. Besides maybe Cao Ren, a.k.a. Dwarf Boy. » _anonymous -- Super samurai bastard... love Zhou Tai » Seproth -- Shredder -- or as me and my friends more refer to him as shreder *cuse his 6th costume looks like shredder from tenage mutant ninja turtles* he's the best offcier in my opion the wu have to offer* plus the coolest* Rock on Shredder rock on » Shokyo -- Naw! Xiao Qiao's the best! -- Any one who can fight with fans has to be given credit *ignoring the fact that it's a game* » Super Dian Wei -- You are BOTH wrong! -- The best player in the game is....Dian Wei! (yeah big suprise) He was so bitchin good, even after death, every one was too chicken shit to face him. Oh and by the way, he doesn't NEED fans to conquer his enemies... He'll just beat you to death with the twins! (and by twins, I mean fists) » DXMZerO -- Zhou Tai -- He looks more like Silver Samurai to me. » Raistlin -- owch -- I'd really hate to see Zhou Tai get thrown into a garbage truck like in ninja turtles... » Wiseman -- there's some mistake -- Zhou Tai wasn't Wu's greatest general, just the coolest in DW4. His claim to fame was saving Sun Quan in He Fei which didn't show any signs of leadership, just strength and skill. Cheng Pu had the most deeds among Wu generals, he saved Sun Ce from Brigands, was second in command at Chi Bi and killed one on of Hua Xiong's blokes. He should have been in DW for a long time » someoneunknown -- naw they're right he's the greatest -- Well in my mind he's tied with the awsome Gan Ning with Wu also. But other than that he could kick everyones ass basically and in DW4 his coolest looking costume is his forth one also. » guanping -- Is it just me..... -- or are people rating guy's on DW? Zhou Tai was nowhere near as good as Cheng Pu. » Lushu -- the fact is -- if you were not a DW fan and I told you what he did before the 15th chapter, you would all believe he was one of the main characters of Wu's team. And when will they ever put him on a real series with his weapon and all. » Fuddy -- CHARACTERS WHO SHOULD BE INCLUDED... -- Why isn't Deng Ai in the dynasty warriors game... I don't even like Wei, but he destroyed the kingdom of Shu practically by himself. He is more than a match for Jiang Wei in every way. Did great deeds, amazing strategist, Wins or draws every duel, knows what everyone is thinking at all times... and nothing... oh well.
62 After his defeat Zhang Ying returned to his master and told his misfortune. Liu Yao was going to punish his failure by death, but listened to his advisers, who asked for mercy for the unfortunate man, and sent him to command the garrison in Lingling. Liu Yao himself set out to meet the invaders. He camped south of the Sacred Hills. Sun Ce camped on the opposite side of the hills.
63 Sun Ce inquired the natives, "Is there a temple of Liu Xiu the Founder of Latter Han in the vicinity?"
64 They said, "There is a temple to the south on the summit of the hills."
65 "I dreamed last night that Liu Xiu called me, so I will go and pray there," said Sun Ce.	» _luxunofwu -- Sun Ce and his head -- You can imagine him dreaming about men by now... » SleepingDragon -- dream -- ring* ring* Sun Ce: uhh...hello?? Voice:umm...hi Sun Ce: who is this?? Voice: Liu Xiu!!Wassap... Sun Ce: dude... what time is it? Liu Xiu: I was just over here kickin it wit some G's on the west siiide.. Sun Ce: dude... stop calling me Liu Xiu: aight... peace... remember to pray!! *click* *dial tone* and that, kids, is why China is now a war-torn country racked with famine » Kelpie -- Oh. My. God. -- That is the funniest thing anybody has ever written in one of these things. I thank you, Sleeping Dragon, for that. It made my day.
66 But Counselor Zhang Zhao advised, "My lord, you should not go as the enemy is on the other side, and you may fall into an ambush."
67 "The spirit will help me: What need I fear?"	» guanping -- you have such strong faith » LiaoHua -- lol -- Considering how Sun Jian didn't seem so faithful as he kept saying he'd hope to be stricken dead if he had the imperial seal.
68 So Sun Ce put on his armor, took his spear and mounted, taking with him twelve of his commanders as an escort. They rode up the hills, dismounted, burned incense, and they all bowed in the shrine.
69 Then Sun Ce knelt and made a vow, saying, "If I, Sun Ce, succeed in my task and restore the authority of my late father, then will I restore this temple and order sacrifices at the four seasons."
70 When they had remounted, Sun Ce said, "I am going to ride along the ridge and reconnoiter the enemy's position."
71 His commanders begged him to refrain, but he was obstinate, and they rode there together, noting the villages below.	» maneve -- sun jian -- im startin to see a little bit of a sun jian thing goin on here: not listening to reason and trying to do everything on his own no matter the danger. could just be me. » Yorak -- No, the whole Sun family was like that. -- They were all reckless to a fault, even the comparatively mellow Sun Quan.
72 A soldier of the other side going along a bye road quickly reported the presence of horsemen on the ridge, and Liu Yao said, "It is certainly Sun Ce trying to inveigle us to battle. But do not go out."	» maneve -- what is a bye road? » Super Dian Wei -- Back road... short cut... whatever. » guanping -- a bye road is more like a -- secret path or small road which you can use to do something that the enemy won't expect. A not well travelled path that isn't going to be highly guarded
73 Taishi Ci jumped up, saying, "What better chance to capture him?"
74 So, without orders he armed himself and rode through the camp, crying, "If there be any valiant men among you, follow me!"	» ZhangDun -- Didn't Sun Ce just do this? -- Rashly moving out, completely oblivious to reason... maybe this is why Sun Ce and Taishi Ci worked well together... » guanping -- If others had followed him, it was a good chance to capture Sun Ce. » Drackor -- Taishi Ci is a very young and brash warrior at this point. -- He's like most other military figures, he wants glory and prestige. Although what he is doing right now is reckless, it's certainly not treacherous. He's showing initiative. Either way the soldiers that follow him will end up in battle and at risk to die, so why not risk them in an attempt to end this? After all... If he had managed to capture Sun Ce the whole thing would be over.
75 No one moved save a low-ranking commander who said, "He is a brave man, and I will go with him."	» ZhangDun -- Apparently... -- "No, there not be any valiant men here!" » Tenma -- Aww, I like whoever this low-ranking commander is. -- Brave enough to follow by himself. Just Taishi Ci and him. This guy is cool.
76 So he also went. The others only laughed at the pair.
77 Now having seen all he wished, Sun Ce thought it time to return and wheeled round his horse. But when he was going over the summit, someone shouted, "Stay, Sun Ce!"
78 Sun Ce turned. Two horsemen were coming at full speed down the next hill. Sun Ce halted and drew up his little escort right and left, he himself with his spear ready.
79 "Which is Sun Ce?" shouted Taishi Ci.
80 "Who are you?" was the reply.
81 "I, Taishi Ci of Laihuang, come to take him prisoner!"
82 "Then I am he!" said Sun Ce, laughing. "Come both of you together. I am not afraid of you. If I were, I should not be Sun Ce!"	» Kelpie -- Alright Sun Ce!! You tell him! -- I love it when they do stuff like that... » HailGanNing -- best line period -- My fav line in the whole book, i mean jesus it shows the balls on this kid!!! 2 men comes to arrest him, and he laughs at them saying bring it on, that shows how confident sun ce was, great thing. » LiaoHua -- They sound almost like pro wrestlers to me except it wasn't fake » drunkmastrZhangFei -- His bodyguards -- Note how many commanders are there bodyguarding Sun Ce. Taishi Ci has only one o.o
83 "You and all your crowd come on, and I will not blench!" cried Taishi Ci putting his horse at a gallop and setting his spear.	» Tenma -- Bravery -- You say Sun Ce was brave... but look at Taishi Ci. Ci has 1 person after him. Ce has all his generals with him. Who's the braver of the two in this instance?
84 Sun Ce braced himself for the shock, and the battle began. Fifty bouts were fought and still neither combatant had the advantage. Sun Ce's commanders whispered to each other their admiration and amazement. Taishi Ci saw that the spearmanship of his opponent showed no weak point whereby he could gain the advantage, so he decided to resort to guile. Feigning defeat he would lead Sun Ce to pursue. Taishi Ci however did not retire along the road by which he had come, but took a path leading around the hill instead of over it.	» Yorak -- the duel -- While 99% of the duels in this book are fictional, this one really happened. » Tyler -- True -- most duels in this book are fictional but you're right this duel really happend » Patricoo -- how can you tell? They all seem the same to me.
85 His antagonist followed, shouting, "He who retreats is no worthy soldier!"
86 But Taishi Ci thought within himself, "He has twelve others at his back and I only one. If I capture him, the others will retake him. I will inveigle him into some secret spot and then try."	» iamnick -- smart
87 So flying and fighting by turns he led Sun Ce, an eager pursuer, down to the plain. Here Taishi Ci suddenly wheeled about and attacked. Again they exchanged half a hundred bouts, without result. Then Sun Ce made a fierce thrust, which his opponent evaded by gripping the spear under his arm, while he himself did the same with his opponent's spear. Neither was wounded but each exerting his utmost strength to pull the other out of the saddle, and they both came to the ground.
88 Their steeds galloped off they knew not whither, while the two men, each dropping his spear, began a hand to hand struggle. Soon their fighting robes were in tatters. Sun Ce gripped the short lance that Taishi Ci carried at his back, while Taishi Ci tore off Sun Ce's helmet. Sun Ce tried to stab with the short lance but Taishi Ci fended off the blow with the helmet as a shield.	» dgr81 -- one of the most awesome duels in the book. -- if only they had fought to the finish... » _Cold -- Duel -- Er... what fun would that have been? "And Taishi Ci killed Sun Ce... Wu never came about... and so back to the Romance of TWO Kingdoms" You follow? » Zhou Yu of Wu -- Impressive -- I'd say that even if he would have lost in the end, this shows that Ce was quite an amazing general. Not only is he known for making very good use of his men, but also of leading and politically enhancing the places he ruled. On top of that, he could fight with one of the stronger men of the times. Quite cool to me. » darkknight -- duel -- i can see where jackie chan gets his moves from, blocking with a helmet... cool » LiaoHua -- Action Scenes -- They'd have to have this scene if they made a movie it would be great
89 Then arose a great shouting. Liu Yao had come up with a thousand soldiers. Sun Ce seemed now in sore straits. His twelve followers came up, and each combatant let go his hold. Taishi Ci quickly found another steed, seized a spear, and mounted. Sun Ce, whose horse had been caught by Cheng Pu, also mounted, and a confused battle began between the handful of men on one side and a whole thousand troops on the other. It swayed and drifted down the hill side. However, soon Zhou Yu leading his troops came to the rescue, and as evening drew on a tempest put an end to the fight. Both sides drew off and returned to camp.	» TomMurch -- This scene would be cool too: -- a dozen mounted generals fighting one thousand infantry for several minutes. A Romance of Three Kingdoms film (trilogy) could put the Lord of the Rings to shame in terms of epic battles and single combats.
90 Next day Sun Ce led his army to the front of Liu Yao's camp, and the challenge was accepted. The armies were drawn up.
91 Sun Ce hung the short lance he had seized from Taishi Ci at the end of his spear, waved it in front of the line of battle, and ordered his soldiers to shout, "If the owner of this had not fled, he would have been stabbed to death!"	» HailGanNing -- Lol Possible the 2 funniest lines -- This line has to make basically anyone laugh, and if not the next one will.....
92 On the other side they hung out Sun Ce's helmet, and the soldiers shouted back, "Sun Ce's head is here already!"	» XinJing -- i know. so far, the wu generals are not only the coolest, but the funniest as well! » LiaoHua -- lol -- This sounds almost like a school fight, I'm gonna tie you in a knot or something like that » lethalinjection -- drat -- Wu is so cool, and yet there are no books written about the 3 kingdoms that r biased towards Wu. They r either biased towards Wei, or Shu, and yet Wu was the most glorious.
93 Both sides thus yelled defiance at each other, one side boasting, the other bragging. Then Taishi Ci rode out challenging Sun Ce to a duel to the death, and Sun Ce would have accepted.
94 But Cheng Pu said, "My lord should not trouble himself. I will take him."
95 And Cheng Pu rode forth.
96 "You are no antagonist for me," said Taishi Ci. "Tell your master to come out!"
97 This incensed Cheng Pu, who rode at his opponent, and they two fought thirty bouts. The duel was stopped by the gongs of Liu Yao.	» SleepingDragon -- Hey, this just came to mind... -- Did you know that in Christian beliefs all the people in this book burned in the firey pits of hell? Yup, even though Jesus was killed only a little bit before (what...181-200 years?) The only way to heaven was through him... and so, since they had no way of knowing, they're all going to burn... I've consulted a theologist about this and he sees it true. » JiaGai -- Uh, what did that have to do with anything? -- Besides, none of these guys are Christian. If anything, they'd be Confucian or Taoist. They'd think CHRISTIANS would burn in hell while THEY go to heaven. » SleepingDragon -- ahem -- But you must remember the christian belief centers around the fact that everyone else is wrong... and I said it was just a side note... » Etherie -- Religion -- I say SleepingDragon is correct :/ My definition for religion (Don't shoot me!): The act of believing that everyone besides you is going to go burn in some fiery place when they die. They also believe that you're supposed to kill everyone who doesn't believe you 'cause speeding up the process=good. And remember, flaming me is a sin! » LiaoHua -- Spread of Religion -- Christianity didn't reach China at this point so they couldn't have thought Christians would burn in a firey place. » Ragnarok -- Christianity. -- The first time Christianity ever made an appearance in Asian history was when the Japanese Damimyo Oda Nobunaga allowed Christians to build churches. Ieyasu Tokugawa also allowed their practises to be followed. As a direct result of this, the Sengoku Jidai period was the first Asian histories to be recorded in Britain, or any other Non-Asian countries. Also on the subject of beliefs. The Chinese believed only in the 'Nine Golden Springs.' Where they would recieve a fate beffitting to how they lived their lives. This book mentions it. "How can I look the first ruler in the face when I see him in the Nine Golden Springs?" is a quote by his Grandson Liu Shan. » RoboSSS -- Well... maybe you should ask more than one person on that matter... -- Really... millions upon millions of people going to "hell", simply because of geological location? Well... I guess it shouldn't be too surprising. =s » DragonAtma -- Nah, don't worry... -- Hell probably has lots of room. And even if they don't, they'll just stick 200 people in the "This room is not to be occupied by more than 20 people" room. It's not like they fear a fire will spread through it! :Þ » ZhaoZilongfan -- Goodness... I hate these darn religious debates... -- I always have them with my deeply religious, unmovable cousin (she loves DW series). » Kveltulfr -- Religion -- This reminds me of a conversation one of my friends told me about... he'd been discussing religion with a Catholic friend of his. He said, "It basically boiled down to her saying I was going to burn in Hell. I said, 'Good, me and Gandhi will have a hunger strike to protest.'" » Seraph -- ...wow, somehow this seems all too familiar. -- I go to a Catholic school (unfortunately), so I hear a lot of this crap all the time. However, the official ruling (according to the watered down Catholicism pracitced around here) is that they had no chance to be baptised and had no knowledge of its "necessity", so as long as they lived a good life as a Christian would judge it, they would get to heaven. or Purgatory. Or something. Anyway, I think that's crap. After all, Ghandi could very well have known about baptism and certainly had a chance, but didn't... would this mean that Ghandi went to hell? I think not. Ironically, though, South Park shows Ghandi in hell in the SP movie. Which is great by the way. » DongDal -- I don't believe that -- So long as a person is good, decent and honest there is no reason why he shouldn't go to Heaven. After all the house of the Lord has many rooms.
98 "Why did you sound the retreat?" said Taishi Ci. "I was just going to capture the wretch."
99 "Because I have just heard that Que has been captured. Zhou Yu led a surprise force thither, and Chen Wu was in league with him to betray the city. We have no home now. I will hasten to Moling to get the help of Xue Li and Ze Rong to retake the city."	» HailGanNing -- poor taishi -- god, that must be the worst feeling in the world, zhou yu and sun ce took out the place where you live, so now you have no home and lost it to your enemy, poor guy.
100 The army retired, Taishi Ci with it, without being pursued.
101 On the other side Zhang Zhao said to Sun Ce, "Zhou Yu's attack is the cause of this move; they are in no mood to fight. A night raid on their camp would finish them."
102 The army was divided into five divisions for the night surprise and hastened toward the camp where they scored a victory. Their opponents scattered in all directions. Taishi Ci alone made a determined stand, and as he could not withstand a whole army, he fled with ten horsemen to Jingxian.
103 Now Sun Ce acquired a new adherent in the person of Chen Wu. He was a fighter of seven-span height, sallow of complexion and red eye, an odd looking man. But Sun Ce held him in high esteem, appointed him Commander, and put him in the van of the attack on Xue Li. As Van Leader, Chen Wu and a dozen horsemen made a dash into the enemy's formation, where they slew half a hundred men. So Xue Li would not fight but remained within his defenses.	» Etherie -- Chen Wu -- He's so very short! » darkknight -- 'bout 5'4 i think, not too bad for a chinese bloke » LiaoHua -- Nutrition -- Lets not forget they didnt get their vitamins and minerals so they wouldn't be as tall as people could be now. So he's not that short » SNDiablos -- not true -- when you consider the height of people like Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Lu Bu, and Cheng Yu. Yes this man is very short. » Drackor -- Size -- It wasn't that this man was short, its that some of the other men mentioned are just freakishly tall.
104 When Sun Ce was attacking the city, a spy came in with the news that Liu Yao and Ze Rong had gone to attack Niuzhu, which made Sun Ce move thither in haste. His two opponents were ready for battle.
105 "I am here!" said Sun Ce, "You had better give in!"
106 A general came out from behind Liu Yao to accept the challenge. It was Yu Mi. But in the third bout Sun Ce made him prisoner and carried him off to the other side. Seeing his colleague thus captured, Fan Neng rode out to the rescue and got quite close. But just as he was going to thrust, all Sun Ce's soldiers shouted, "There is a man behind you going to strike secretly!"	» _Cold -- "General Who Shouts Unnecessary Things" -- Try to imagine this army shouting "There is a man behind you going to strike secretly!"...it's a rather funny image. » _anonymous -- post -- Why do things verbally than physically, I would have liked to have seen this scene of TV..... haha.... those assholes » YellowSquirrel -- couldn't they have just said "watch out"? -- by the time they finish what they said he could've been shish-kebabed. » Etherie -- Don't forget that this is a translation, it's probably a shorter phrase in Chinese. » darkknight -- all sun ce could would be something like -- man... there... strike... man... is... secret... there... kill... watch... is... a... strike... chicken. it wuold all be a bulr lkie my wrdos at the memont and sun ce culod not udnesrtand.
107 At this Sun Ce turned and shouted so thunderously loud that Fan Neng fell out of his saddle from mere fright. He split his skull and died. When Sun Ce reached his standard, he threw his prisoner to the ground. And Yu Mi was also dead, crushed to death between the arm and the body of his captor. So in a few moments Sun Ce had disposed of two enemies, one crushed to death and one frightened to death. Thereafter Sun Ce was called the Young Overlord.	» Explainer -- Overlord -- Xiang Yu, Liu Bang's archrival, had the title of Overlord when he was the King of Chu (next to Wu). A powerful leader, Xiang Yu almost won the empire. » _Sam B. -- Name -- Wouldn't he also have been called the little king, or conqueror? » _GuanYuofShu -- Not that I know of -- I've never seen Sun Ce refered to as little king. It might have been, but i severly doubt it. » _y2hitman3 -- name -- i believe he was called Little Conqueror » Explainer -- Young Overlord -- The original words are "Young Overlord King". The word "overlord" is not an official title like duke or king; overlord implies a person who rose to power by conquering the opponents. The word "king" or "prince" is an official title. Xiang Yu started as a rebel against Qin, and he conquered and consolidated many other rebels under his banner. He later became the King of Chu, which was currently Jingzhou and part of the South Land. Hence, the people called him the "Overlord King". The rise of Sun Ce made people think of Xiang Yu, and because he was so young, they called him "Young Overlord King". » dgr81 -- post -- actual chinese term is 'xiao ba wang' where 'xiao' is little, 'ba' sorta means to dominate/usurp by force and 'wang' means king. so the entire term roughly translates to little tyrant/overlord. » heartofbattle -- Amazing -- Thats really sumthin, being crushed between the body and arm of sun ce. sun ce must have been a big and powerful man. » Seproth -- brutal deaths -- wow those are some brutal deaths u got there 1 guys having a heart atk and his skull cracking open and another getting crushed painfull*but not nearly as badd as are good old friend dong zhou* » Super Dian Wei -- post -- Nothing is as bad as being stabbed hundreds of times in a one on one-hundred fight until your body just loses the will to live and stops working. God, Dian Wei was good... » XiaoQiao -- wow... -- when they say 'you scared me to death' some of them really meant it... » LordSunQuan -- lol -- lol » darkknight -- question -- xiao and zi both mean little. are they like english eg. small and little » dgr81 -- Zilong means baby dragon or dragonlet. » Shokyo -- I thought Zilong meant Little Dragon... -- So "xiao" would be small as in young, and "zi" would be... I don't know, to do with size? » dgr81 -- zilong -- 'xiao' just means small/little. 'zi' means son/child. 'zilong' means...i don't know, child-dragon? just curious, but i'm guessing you know japanese, does zilong translate to koryu?
108 Liu Yao had a defeat. The greater portion of his force surrendered, and the number of those slain exceeded ten thousand. Liu Yao himself fled to Yuzhang and sought safety with Liu Biao, Imperial Protector of Jingzhou.
109 An attack on Moling was the next move. As soon as Sun Ce arrived at the moat, he summoned Commander Xue Li to surrender. Someone let fly a furtive arrow from the wall which wounded Sun Ce in the left thigh so severely that he fell from his steed. Hastily his officers picked up their wounded chief and returned to the camp where the arrow was pulled out and the wound dressed with the medicines suitable for injuries by metals.
110 By Sun Ce's command the story was spread abroad that the hurt had been fatal, and all the soldiers set up cries of lamentation. The camp was broken up. Xue Li, Zhang Ying, and Chen Heng made a night sortie but fell into a carefully prepared ambush.	» LiaoHua -- fake death -- All three kingdoms use this ploy, its popular » Shokyo -- Well, the death of the commander IS the nice time when soldiers run in and pillage... stuff. » guanping -- If the commander dies then the army is going to be in disarry -- might as well destroy them now then
111 Presently Sun Ce himself appeared on horseback, shouting: "Sun Ce is here still!"
112 His sudden appearance created such a panic that the soldiers dropped their weapons and fell on their faces. Sun Ce gave orders not to kill them. But their leaders fell: Zhang Ying from Chen Wu's spear thrust as he turned to run away; Chen Heng was killed by Jiang Qin's arrow; and Commander Xue Li was slain in the turbulence. Thus Sun Ce got possession of Moling. Having calmed the people, he sent his soldiers away to Jingxian, where Taishi Ci was in command.	» TiangFu -- Sorry but, That's FUNNY -- "...the soldiers dropped their weapons and fell on their faces..." Can you imagine an entire army falling flat on their faces? » LiaoHua -- Yea i bet half of them wet themselves
113 Taishi Ci had assembled two thousand recruits in addition to his own troops for the purpose of avenging his master. Sun Ce and Zhou Yu on the other hand consulted how to capture him alive.
114 Zhou Yu planned, "Attack the city on three sides, leaving the east gate free for flight. Some distance off an ambush shall be prepared, when Taishi Ci, his men fatigued and horses spent, shall fall an easy victim."
115 The latest recruits under Taishi Ci's banner were mostly hillmen and unaccustomed to discipline. Beside, the walls of the city were pitiably low. One night Sun Ce ordered Chen Wu to strip off his long dress, leave his arms save a dagger, clamber up the ramparts, and set fire to the city. Seeing the flames spreading, Taishi Ci made for the east gate and, as soon as he got outside, Sun Ce followed in pursuit. The pursuit was maintained for some fifteen miles when the pursuers stopped.
116 Taishi Ci went on as long as possible, finally halting to rest in a spot surrounded by reeds. Suddenly a tremendous shouting arose. Taishi Ci was just starting when tripping ropes arose all round, his horse was thrown and he found himself a prisoner.
117 Taishi Ci was taken back to camp. As soon as Sun Ce heard the news, he himself rode out to order the guards to leave the prisoner, whose bonds he loosened with his own hands. Then he took off his own embroidered robe and put it on the captive. They entered the camp together.
118 "I knew you were a real hero," said Sun Ce. "That worm Liu Yao had no use for such as you, and so he got beaten."	» _ender13 -- Power of personality -- Sun Ce's fame had grown to a point where it was more beneficial to convert a worthy opponent, with the defection of Taishi Ci, there was no real opponent to his designs in the region.
119 Taishi Ci, overcome by this kindness and good treatment, then formally surrendered.
120 Sun Ce seized his hand and said, laughing, "If you had taken me at that fight we had near the shrine, would you have killed me?"
121 "Who can say?" said Taishi Ci smiling.	» Cynoc -- heh -- Just his way of saying, "Yes, but I wont tell you that after you've captured me."
122 Sun Ce laughed also and they entered his tent, where Taishi Ci was placed in the seat of honor at a banquet.	» _Chicihri -- A banquet where no one got killed? Amazing. » Seproth -- my god -- the first banquet where no 1 died » Rahonavis -- Kindness and Sincerity -- Notice how great men and warriors are won? By heaping onto them generous doses of kindness, sincerity, praises etc etc. IMHO it is a way of showing tact as a commander. Hardly useful in modern warfare but in those days one's status, trustworthiness, humanity and honor goes along way.
123 Taishi Ci said, "Can you trust me so far as to let me go to muster as many as I can of the soldiers of my late master? Under the smart of this defeat they will turn against him, and they would be a great help to you."
124 "Exactly what I most desire. I will make an agreement with you that at midday tomorrow you will return."
125 Taishi Ci agreed and went off. All the generals said he would never return.
126 "He is trustworthy and will not break his word," said the chief.
127 None of the officers believed he would come back. But the next day they set up a bamboo rod in the gate of the camp, and just as the shadow marked noon Taishi Ci returned, bringing with him about a thousand troops. Sun Ce was pleased, and his officers had to confess that he had rightly judged his man.	» guanping -- its was no risk -- if he doesn't return, he will easily be destroyed again and be killed this time; if he does, he will be happy you trused him and you get more soldiers. Good one Sun Ce... » noise -- In addition, if he were to defect, better let him do it now rather than after he commands your troop
128 Sun Ce thus marched his army to the South Land, and his enemies fled or surrendered before his force. He had now several legions and the southeast of the Great River was his. He improved the conditions of the people and maintained order so that his adherents and supporters daily increased. He was called Sun Ce the Bright.	» LiaoHua -- He got a lot of nicknames
129 When Sun Ce's army approached, the people used to flee in terror; but when it had arrived and they saw that no one was permitted to loot and not the least attempt was made on their houses, they rejoiced and presented the soldiers with oxen and wine, for which they were in turn duly rewarded. Gladness filled the country side. The soldiers who had followed Liu Yao were kindly treated. Those who wished to join Sun Ce's army did so; those who preferred not to be soldiers were sent home with presents. And thus Sun Ce won the respect and praise of everyone and became very powerful.	» ZhangDun -- Sun Ce REALLY knows what he's doing... -- He's following one of the oldest, yet most effective, ways to win battles... allowing your enemies to surrender peacefully, and do not antagonize them, and they will be loyal for a LONG time. » TomMurch -- If only modern armies had such discipline. » guanping -- most do -- however you always get a few jerks in each...mind you the American army is pretty good... they just shoot anything that moves. » TomMurch -- True...but us Brits get a bit annoyed by that. » guanping -- I know -- why do they keep shooting us? » Yunsung -- Because you move at the wrong times. » DongDal -- You would have thought. -- That the fact we've got a British flag on all our gear would have been a giveaway. » MaTseng -- hey.. any white male/female company with a flag of britain waving -- automatically makes the british what if it's an enemy disguised as british breaking the unkown rule of war... ONLY THE REAL NATION MAY WAVE IT'S OWN FLAG NO OTHER COUNTRY MAY USE A FLAG OF ANY OTHER COUNTRY TO TRICK ANOTHER PERSON! o_O;; » TomMurch -- More than just flags... -- in this day and age, with radio communications linking all units to HQ, it should be impossible to mistake an enemy with a friendly unit. I'm not a master of military comms, but if the British and American armies are (literally) on the wrong frequency, we might as well paint a giant target over our tamks and wait for 5 o'clock Charlie to chuck a bomb at them. » guanping -- I understand that the British troops really need new radio's » TomMurch -- Good point. -- We did have worries about shortages of desert-proof equipment in the early stages of the war, so maybe our radios are useless. Still, the fact that our tanks are new British tanks (albeit filled with sand) and not old Russian models should be a hint to the Americans as to who they are. » guanping -- Things like bombing the Red Cross does not help them -- this shows how a good kind rule can win people over who have suffered under tyrants
130 Sun Ce then settled his mother and the remainder of the family in Que, setting his brother, Sun Quan, and Zhou Tai over the city of Xuancheng. Then he headed an expedition to the south to reduce Wujun.
131 At that time there was a certain Yan Baihu, or the White Tiger, who styled himself King of East Wu and ruled over Wujun. His armies stationed at Wucheng and Jiaxing. Hearing of Sun Ce's approach, Yan Baihu sent his brother, Yan Yu, with an army against Sun Ce, and they met at Maple Bridge.	» Explainer -- Wu -- Wu is a state in the Spring and Autumn period (BC 770-476). Located southeast in the Great River Plain. Became dominant in BC 506, when her army defeated Chu under the leadership of Wu Qi.
132 Yan Yu, sword in hand, took his stand on the bridge, and this was reported to Sun Ce, who prepared to accept the challenge.
133 Zhang Hong tried to dissuade him, saying, "For as much as my lord's fate is bound up with that of the army, he should not risk a conflict with a mere robber. I wish that you should remember your own value."
134 "Your words, O Wise One, are as gold and precious stones, but I fear that my soldiers will not carry out my commands unless I myself share their dangers."	» Tiamatty -- Great words -- The sentiments of a great leader. If you want your soldiers to be loyal, take part in the dangers, not just the glories, of military service.
135 However, Sun Ce sent forth Han Dang to take up the challenge. Just as Han Dang reached the bridge, Jiang Qin and Chen Wu, who had dropped down the river in a small boat, passed under the bridge. Though the arrows fell in clouds on the bank, the two men rushed up and fiercely attacked Yan Yu as he stood on the bridge. Yan Yu fled and Han Dang went in pursuit. But Yan Yu smote up to the west gate of the city into which he entered.
136 Sun Ce laid siege to Wujun both by land and water. For three days no one came out to offer battle. Then at the head of his army, Sun Ce came to the west gate and summoned the warden. An officer of inconsiderable rank came out and stood with one hand resting on a beam while with the other he gave point to his abuse of those below. Quickly Taishi Ci's hands sought his bow and an arrow was on the string.
137 "See me hit that fellow's hand," said he, turning to his companions.
138 Even as the sound of his voice died away, the bowstring twanged, the arrow sped and lodged in the beam, firmly pinning thereto the officer's hand. Both sides, those on the wall and those below it, marveled and acclaimed at such marksmanship.
139 The wounded man was taken away.
140 When Yan Baihu the White Tiger heard of the exploit, he said, "How can we hope to withstand an army with such leaders as this in it?"	» _Dude! -- Sun Ce kicks ASS!!! » XinJing -- Taishi Ci -- Taishi Ci is one masterful warrior. Melee and ranged he is a force to be reckoned with.
141 And his thoughts turned toward a peace. He sent his brother Yan Yu out to see Sun Ce, who received him civilly, invited him into the tent, and set wine before him.
142 "And what does your brother propose?" said Sun Ce.
143 "He is willing to share this region with you," was the reply.
144 "The rat! How dare he put himself on a level with me?" cried Sun Ce.	» LiaoHua -- Sun Ce -- His ego is really growing. This kinda sounds like Alexander the Great and the Persians » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Sorry to all the Sun Ce fans out there -- He's not even on the same level as Alexander the Great. Sun Ce's comparativley like Stormin Norman from Desert Storm. » WUuuu -- No one around this time period is really on Alexander's level -- Alexander conquered half the known (at the time) world. » Ragnarok -- Alexander -- Alexander conquered half the known world with his Macedonian army built up by generations of warfare and alliances. They were the most elite army in the world following the defeat of the Spartans. Sun Ce and the rest of China was a mass of poorly trained peasants. » WUuuu -- And Alexander may have had an elite army... -- but he was also not always on top in terms of numbers and in bad positions definitely from time to time. He still managed. And poorly trained peasents is crap. War and rebellion after war and rebellion, along with a faulty police system, and the peasents that ended up warring and in militias were pretty damn well trained. » ClarenceK -- Alexander may have conquered the half known world (in Roman terms)... -- But the size of that half known world is similar to the size of the China at that time, needless to mention that the population is far less than that of the middle kingdom's. » WUuuu -- That is a fair point, the population one atleast... -- And one which I must research before answering. Good job. But seriously, the known world at the time was far bigger than China. Russia alone is comparable in size. Add to that Europe, Northern Africa and most of the Middle East and we are in far larger lands than China at the time. The population question, however,earns some research. » LuBoyan -- Alexander's Empire -- First off, it wasn't that big. It stretched east from his home country of Macedonia to India, South to Egypt. He had all of present day Turkey, Iraq, Iran. The map I'm looking at doesn't even give him all of the Greecian penninsula. He does go a little into Russia, the part north of India(Sogdiana). But, from the looks of it, he has nothin on the size of China. » lethalinjection -- China vs Alexander -- Ummmm...., ok that's great, but don't forget that China is one of the biggest, if not the biggest country in the world! I wouldn't be surprised if by the time the 3 Kingdoms were rightfully established, with Shu in Cheng Du and such areas, Wu in Wu, Lu Jiang, etc., and Wei conquering all of Northern China, that all 3 of these territories were bigger than the territories that Alexander conquered, and besides Alex as far as i know did not conquer that much of Russia. So wouldn't Vlad of the Kiev tribe even have a bigger territory. ( vlad was the first tribe of Russia to unanimously gain victory over most of the other tribes. ) » Tiamatty -- Alexander's accomplishments were still impressive -- Don't forget, he only had about 35 000 troops, and he conquered a sizable chunk of land. He was vastly outnumbered by the Persians, yet he absolutely trounced them on 2 occasions. Even if he didn't really conquer a lot of land, he shouldn't be sold short. He did quite well for himself, all things considered. » XiahouDunis God -- If we are talking conquests and great military leaders..... -- do not discount the Huns, the Mongolian Khan's, or to a lesser extent the Roman empire at its pinnacle, or hell even the Grecian kingdoms at their top point. All of these kingdoms/leaders were all impressive in their own right, each and every one of them is comparing apples to oranges.
145 Sun Ce commanded to put the messenger to death. Yan Yu started up and drew his sword; but out flew Sun Ce's blade, and the unhappy messenger fell to the ground. His head was hacked off and sent into the city to his brother.	» _luxunofwu -- tch -- Such a so-called hero-like thing to do. » Seproth -- what a nice guy -- yep he is a very nice guy isn't he? i mean the guy said we want to be friends and Sun Ce killed him. and to think they just potrayed Sun Ce as a good man. » JiaGai -- Sun Ce -- Nothing new, just about everyone kills messengers in the novel. It's unusual for a leader to do the deed himself, though. Bloodthirsty little bastard. I've said it before, Sun Ce is a superb military man but is rather brash, arrogant and crude. Kind of reminds me of George Patton. » LuXun -- position -- well think about it how is he goin to be recognized if he doesnt show u what happens to ppl who dont listen. i mean for real no is gonna listen to him if hes just sayin "no, thank you. here's a muffin basket." » XinJing -- Come On People! -- LuXun is right. Being a good leader involves putting people in their place. Sun Ce isn't bloodthirsty, probably the opposite. If he did not kill him, then he would have had to fight for all of that territory and hundreds would have died. By killing that fool, he avoided another battle using scare tactics, which he seems to be pretty good at. He is a kind ruler, but that man was not one of his servants. Besides, after all the messenger killing that has gone on you'd think he'd be smart enough to send someone else... » LiaoHua -- Sun Ce is NICE -- Remember a few paragraphs up with him treated the people kindly and sending them gifts even if they didn't join his army. He's as nice as Liu Bei although their methods are a little different » guanping -- it was partly Yan Yu's fault -- I think Sun Ce would have changed his mind due to advior's persuading. Yan Yu paniced and drew his sword so Sun Ce killed him. He would have perhaps just been beaten and ejected Also the Yans where bandits, not local lords, to share land or make any deal was to encourge pillaging, instead Sun Ce was detirmened to bring them to justice » JiaGai -- He ordered the messenger to death. -- Going by precedents of the novel, that usually meant... the messenger was going to be put to death. » TomMurch -- Being a messenger in ancient China -- You may as well be a miners canary. [Yan Baihu is relaxing in his camp.] Yan Baihu: Ah...life is good. Yan Yu (from the enemy camp, far away): AAAAARGHH! Yan Baihu: {sigh} [hits the intercom button] Jane, get me another messenger. {to himself} Why don't they just send a message saying they're going to kill me? Don't know why I even bother...
146 This had its effect. Yan Baihu saw resistance was hopeless, so he abandoned Wujun and fled. Sun Ce pressed the attack. Huang Gai captured Jiaxing, and Taishi Ci took Wucheng. Several other southern cities were fallen. The territory was quickly subdued. Yan Baihu rushed off toward Yuhang in the east, plundering on all sides, till a band of villagers under the leadership of one Ling Cao checked his career of robbery there. Yan Baihu then fled toward Kuaiji.	» WuMing -- This is why Sun Ce refused -- Yan Baihu fled Wujun and attacked, pillaged, and killed all the cities that came in his path. Sun Ce killed Yan Yu, because the thought of sharing the region with a person such as Yan Baihu was unappealing to one with his personality of kindness to the people.
147 Ling Cao and his son then went to meet Sun Ce, who took them into his service, and appointed them Commanders as a reward for their service, and the joint forces crossed the Great River.
148 The White Tiger, Yan Baihu, gathered his scattered forces and took up a position at Western Ford, but Cheng Pu attacked him there and scattered the defenders, chasing them as far as Kuaiji. The Governor of the place, Wang Lang, was on Yan Baihu's side and inclined to support him actively.	» Ragnarok -- The ploy was to do with the Ford itself. -- The marshy ford makes it hard for any army to make an effective attack whilst inside it. Cheng Pu's soldiers were obviously many, and well-trained at that.
149 But, when Wang Lang proposed this, one of his officers stood forth, saying, "No! No! Sun Ce as a leader is humane and upright, while the White Tiger is a savage ruffian. Rather capture him and offer his person as a peace offering to Sun Ce."	» LuXun -- smartest guy i know -- rather than capturing the cool guys capture the fag
150 The Governor turned angrily toward the speaker, who was an official named Yu Fan from Kuaiji, and bade him be silent. Yu Fan withdrew sighing deeply. And the Governor went to the help of the White Tiger with whom he joined forces at Shanyin.
151 Sun Ce came up. When both sides were arrayed, Sun Ce rode out and addressed Wang Lang, saying, "Mine is an army of good soldiers, and my aim is to restore peace to this region, but you give your support to a rebel!"
152 Wang Lang replied, "Your greed is insatiable. Having got possession of Wujun, you want also my territory. I shall revenge for the Yans!"
153 This response greatly angered Sun Ce. Just as battle was to be joined, Taishi Ci advanced and Wang Lang came toward him waving a sword. Before they had exchanged many passes, Zhou Xin dashed out to help Wang Lang. Thereupon Huang Gai rode out to make the sides more equal. These latter two were just engaging when the drums rolled on both sides, and a general battle began.
154 Suddenly confusion was caused in the rear of Wang Lang's army by the sudden onslaught of a small army. Wang Lang galloped off to see the attackers were Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu. Then an attack was made on his flank, so that he was in a hopeless position, and he and Yan Baihu and Zhou Xin, fighting desperately to cut an alley out, only just managed to reach the shelter of the city. The drawbridges were raised, the gates closed, and preparations made to sustain a siege.	» guanping -- Zhou Yu is good at this -- Several times has he appeared in ambush or flank/rear attack
155 Sun Ce followed right up to the walls and then divided his troops so as to attack all four gates. Seeing that the city was being fiercely attacked, Wang Lang was for making a sortie, but Yan Baihu opposed this as hopeless against so strong a force outside.	» _pizzlet -- What? -- What exactly is a sortie? » _Voodoo Chile -- Sortie -- sor·tie (sôrt, sôr-t) n. An armed attack, especially one made from a place surrounded by enemy forces. It sounds like he proposed to attack one side of Sun Ce's forces to make a hole to escape from. » ladyphoenix -- sortie -- sortie = exit » Shokyo -- Why do we have French here? -- This is a Chinese book translated into English. I see no French in there. Unless they did other European languages while translating first? » JiaGai -- Sortie -- Even if it's a French word, it's used in English as well. Modern military aviators call air combat missions "sorties." It's just another word for battle. » toocold -- It's been assimilated -- some words get assimilated into languages, so even if they are not natural to the language we use them. English is actually a language made up of other languages. It's like the word burrito... it is used in english seamlessly even though it is not english... savvy? » Etherie -- Melee is also french, but no one complained about it :/ » Shokyo -- I've seen melee plenty of times, but not sortie. » guanping -- its just a less common a word than melee -- thus your confusion » miwasatoshi -- Sortie -- is hardly an uncommon term in modern military terminology (and probably MORE common than melee anymore). Warplanes, for example, fly on sorties every single day, and are doing so as we speak.
156 "We can only strengthen our position and remain behind the shelter of the ramparts until hunger forces the besiegers to retire," said Yan Baihu.
157 Wang Lang agreed, and the siege went on. For several days a vigorous attack was maintained, but with little success.	» _moogs -- post -- Can someone a little more familiar with ancient Chinese warfare clear up a few things for me please? I fail to understand how such a siege would fail. Granted I have only knowledge of more European warfare so all the battles seem odd. Flaming arrows into the city, or perhaps at the drawbridges (which I would guess were made of wood) or even the use of some of the bombs mentioned frequently earlier in the story should have easily made a hole in the defenses for the attackers to go through. Perhaps I'll go the the message board for a more detailed explanation, but in this case I simply ask how would Sun Ce's forces have been unable to breach the city? » _I luv ND Football -- Possible Solution -- Maybe Wang Fang used interior lines, so whenever there was a breakthrough, he could meeet Sun Ce with all his reserves. » _Deruki -- post -- another possibility brad, is that Sun Ce's army could have run out of supplies, not had a bridge, and their forces were being driven off and too many were being killed every attack. It doesn't look like it was long enough for them to run out of supplies (several days) » _Shige -- Siege Warfare -- Bear in mind that trying to take a fortified position is THE most costly kind of assault; no matter the period or geography. I believe that the general rule around this time was for every defender there must be 3-4 attackers. Something like that, anyway. A protracted siege could very easily leave an opposing army to go home fruitless. Add to this the various factors of logistics (length of supply line, etc.) and the fact that the defenders will be barracked, whereas the attackers sleep in a tent each night...the list goes on ad infinitum... ;O) » LiaoHua -- Castle Walls -- Well they obviously can see Sun Ce's formation from the castle walls, unless he's miles away, and then they can shoot arrows at those who are getting close; so there's a good chance of failure involved
158 In a council, Sun Jing, who was the uncle of Sun Ce, said, "Since they are holding the city with such resolution, it will be difficult to dislodge them. But the bulk of their supplies is stored at Chadu, distant only some ten miles. Our best plan is to seize this place, thus attacking where the enemy is unprepared, and doing what they do not expect."	» ladyphoenix -- Good move, Sun Jing. -- Seems like this is a popular move, to take over the enemy's supply depot... » LuBoyan -- But often, if a soldier is cut off, he fight even fiercer. -- Sun-tzu often discusses putting your soldiers at risk to make them fight, i.e. you burn your ships if you invade and you always fight in dangerous territory(deep inside enemy territory. Now, obviously there is a limit to this... » Yorak -- Death Ground -- Risk typically refers to immediate risk. The tactic of allowing the enemy to take your supplies so your soliders fight harder is tried later, and fails miserably. Soldiers with a homicidal enemy in their front and nowhere to run to tend to fight like the devil; soldiers with no food and an enemy offering some if they lay down their arms tend to surrender. » Shokyo -- Human instinct can be a wonderful thing. » LiaoHua -- Remember in Chapter 2 -- Liu Bei says to Zhu Jun or whoever it is that they should attack on three sides letting the enemy have a chance of escape » MaMengQi -- LiaoHua, yeah, they use it a lot. It is a Sun Tzu strategy. -- It is said 'Wei Cheng Bi Jue', means when you are besieging a city, leave a side open. This will give the enemy a hope to escape, then the enemy won't be so desperate to hold the city till they die. you can attack them when they escape. Actually, Ghenghis Khan used it a lot.
159 Sun Ce approved, saying, "My uncle's plan is admirable and will crush the rebels."
160 So he issued orders to kindle watch fires at all the gates, and leave the flags standing to maintain the appearance of soldiers in position while the expedition went south.
161 Zhou Yu came to utter a warning, "When you, my lord, go away, the besieged will surely come out and follow you. We might prepare a surprise for them."
162 Sun Ce replied, "My preparations are complete, and the city will be captured tonight."
163 So the army set out. Wang Lang heard that the besiegers had gone, and he went up to the tower to reconnoiter. He saw the fires blazing, the smoke rising, and the pennons fluttering in the breeze as usual and hesitated.
164 Zhou Xin said, "He has gone and this is only a strategy. Let us go out and smite them."
165 Yan Baihu said, "If he has gone, it is to attack Chadu. Let us pursue."	» Ragnarok -- Bad move. -- With his most capable commanders and advisors now moving North. The cities of Lingling, and in particular Guiyang are fairly undefended for Sun Ce. A forced march would be most unexpected and Wang Lang gains provisions and soldiers. » Shokyo -- So we are "hobbling the army" here.
166 "The place is our base of supply," said Wang Lang, "and must be defended. You two lead the way, and I will follow with reserves."	» XinJing -- heh -- Task very dangerous... you go first.
167 So Yan Baihu and Zhou Xin went forth with five thousand soldiers and drew near their enemy about the first watch, at seven miles from the city. The road led through dense forest. Then suddenly the drums beat and lighted torches sprang up on all sides. Yan Baihu was frightened, turned his horse and started to retreat. At once a leader appeared in front in whom, by the glare of the torches, he recognized Sun Ce. Zhou Xin made a rush at him but fell under Sun Ce's spear. The men surrendered. However, Yan Baihu managed to cut his way out and fled to Yuhang.
168 Wang Lang soon heard of the loss and, not daring to return to the city, fled in all haste to the coastal regions. And so Sun Ce got possession of the city of Kuaiji.
169 Having restored order, a few days later a man came bringing the head of the White Tiger as an offering to Sun Ce. This man was a native of the county. He was of eight-span height, with a square face and wide mouth. He was named Dong Xi. Sun Ce appointed him Commander. After this, peace reigned in all the southeast. Sun Ce placed his uncle Sun Jing in command of the city and made Zhu Zhi Governor of Wujun. Then Sun Ce returned to his own place, south of the Great River.
170 While Sun Ce was absent, a band of brigands suddenly attacked Xuancheng, left in the care of his brother Sun Quan and the leader Zhou Tai. As the onslaught was made on all sides at once, and in the night, the brigands got the upper hand. Zhou Tai took the youth in his arms and mounted a horse; but when the robbers came on with swords to attack him, he dismounted, and though without mail, met the robbers on foot and slew them as they came up. Then came a horseman armed with a spear, but Zhou Tai laid hold of his spear and pulled him to the earth. Next Zhou Tai mounted the robber's horse, and thrusting this way and that with the spear fought his way out. So Sun Quan was preserved, but his savior had received more than a dozen wounds. However, the bandits went away.	» YellowSquirrel -- Lucky -- Sun Ce is lucky- he's been deemed earlier the "General Who Exterminates Brigands". Those guys attacked the wrong general » Super Dian Wei -- post -- I find this nickname to be totally lame compared to his dad's old title of "Acting General Who Smashes the Caitiffs." If that isn't.... different, I don't know what is. » JiaGai -- Titles -- Just my uneductated opinion, all these titles seem to serve as badges of honor. No matter what a reader might think of a title, these people would have been proud to have one bestowed upon them. Kind of like the ribbons and medals a modern day military officer might recieve and wear on his uniform. » iluvNDfootball -- Also -- They may also have been used similar to a resume. "Okay, you're General Who Conquers the Stronghold, so you attack the pass..." » Super Dian Wei -- True. -- That is also what JiaGai is saying. If you get a gold in the olympics for swimming, not only is it a kind of badge of honor, but don't be suprised if the Navy approaches you with a job opening. » XinJing -- Exactly -- This what a title is supposed to be. It may sound silly to us in english because it is translated but a title kind of sums up the accomplishments of the general. If he exterminates brigands then that should be his title. If he conquers the east then that should be his title. If he vaults onto his horse with two 90lb spears that should be his title. Haha that would be a pretty funny one: "General Who Vaults onto Horses with Two Heavy Freakin' Spears" » Tenma -- How old is Sun Quan at this time? -- It says Zhou Tai took the young in his arms. It makes it seem like Sun Quan is still pretty much a baby, younger than 10 or something. » DongDal -- He is a teenager now.
171 These wounds being due to metal would not heal but swelled enormously, and the brave soldier's life hung in the balance. Sun Ce returned and was deeply grieved.
172 Then Dong Xi said, "Once in an engagement with some coastal pirates, I received many spear wounds, but a certain wise man named Yu Fan recommended a surgeon who cured me in half a month."
173 "Surely this must be Yu Fan of Kuaiji," replied Sun Ce. "That is he; he is so called."
174 "Yes, truly a wise man. I would employ him."
175 So Sun Ce sent two officers to invite Yu Fan, and he came at once. He was treated in most friendly fashion and appointed an official forthwith. Then the question of treating the wounded man was brought up.
176 "The surgeon is one Hua Tuo from Qiao, who has perfectly marvelous medicine skill. I will get him to come," said Yu Fan.
177 Shortly the famous Hua Tuo arrived, a man with the complexion of a youth and a snowy beard. He looked more like a saint who had passed the gates of this life. He was treated very warmly and taken to see the sick general's wounds.	» DongDal -- Question -- Did the Chinese have any sort of equivalent to Saints? The only thing I can think of is the 8 immortals.
178 "The case is not difficult," said the surgeon.
179 And he prepared certain drugs that healed the wounds within a month. Sun Ce suitably acknowledged his care and skill, and he was allowed to leave with rich rewards.
180 Next Sun Ce attacked the brigands and destroyed them, so restoring complete tranquillity to the South Land. After this he set garrisons at all the strategic points in the old state of Wu, and this done, memorialized what he had achieved to the Throne. He came to an understanding with Cao Cao and sent letters to Yuan Shu demanding the return of the Imperial Hereditary Seal he had left in pledge.	» YellowSquirrel -- Lucky -- My earlier post is now proven » guanping -- whereas one of mine was wrong..... -- sorry guys. » noise -- In pledge -- I've left the seal as a guarantee for my words. Now that I broke my word, give me back that darn seal :-).
181 But Yuan Shu, secretly cherishing the most ambitious designs, wrote excuses and did not return the state jewel. In his own place Yuan Shu hastily summoned about thirty of his officers to a council. Among them were Adviser Yang Dajiang and Generals Zhang Xun, Ji Ling, Qiao Rui, Lei Bo, and Chen Lan.	» atomicwillie -- the ring -- MY PRECIOUS! GIVE ME BACK THE PRECIOUS!!!!
182 Yuan Shu said, "Sun Ce borrowed an army from me and set out on an expedition which has made him master of the South Land. Now he says nothing of repayment but demands the token of his pledge. Truly he is a boor, and what steps can I take to destroy him?"	» Rahonavis -- Scheming Yuan Shu -- Had Yuan Shu been a little more generous and had more trust to begin with, this never would have happened. But the very nature of Yuan Shu is such that he is a lying scheming SOB to start with. His ruling ability has little to be desired, if it wasn't for his councilors he'd never get anywhere. » Drackor -- Yuan Shu is in the right here.... -- Sun Ce Exchanged 3,000 troops for that seal. Now that Sun Ce is a lord, if he wants the seal back, he should send 3,000 troops back to Yuan Shu. It's as simple as that. If Yuan Shu dosen't wanna part with it, then that's a different story. Either way, its not right of Sun Ce to try and go back on the deal now that he's gotten what he wants. » guanping -- You are right Drackor -- Might I say how impressed I am with your views » Drackor -- Thank You Guanping -- While I have my own personal opinions about things, I try to stick to facts and objective analysis when I write my notes, although every now and then it gets tough. :P Might I also say that I am impressed with your views as well, nice to know there's someone on this site that can present a formidable arguement. :)
183 Yang Dajiang replied, "You cannot do any thing against him, for he is too strongly placed, the Great River as the shield. You must first remove Liu Bei in revenge for having attacked you without cause, and then you may think about Sun Ce. I have a scheme to put the former into your hands in a very short time."
184 Yuan Shu went not to destroy the tiger, but instead Against a dragon forth his army led.
185 The means Yang Dajiang employed will be made plain in the next chapter.

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