««« Chapter 6 »»» Burning The Capital, Dong Zhuo Commits An Atrocity; Hiding The Imperial Hereditary Seal, Sun Jian Breaks Faith.

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1 Zhang Fei rode hard up to the Pass, but the defenders sent down stones and arrows like rain so that he could not enter, and he returned. The eight lords all joined in felicitations to the three brothers for their services, and the story of victory was sent to Yuan Shao, who ordered Sun Jian to make an immediate advance.	» Khaid -- Yuan Shao didn't even compliment the Three Brothers that brought advantage to the Allied Forces. » WeiYanYan -- heh -- Like they say: Do something right and you won't hear about it, but do something wrong and you're sure to hear about it » iamnick -- sun jian's role -- why does Yuan Shao send Sun Jian out first, and now here he also sends him to lead the advancing army? » TomMurch -- Sun Jian was a highly respected general, while many of the allies were less famous. -- Yuan Shao must of thought that Sun Jian would have been a safe bet, even with a depleted force.
2 Thereupon Sun Jian with two trusty generals, Cheng Pu and Huang Gai, went over to the camp of Yuan Shu.
3 Tracing figures on the ground with his staff, Sun Jian said, "Dong Zhuo and I had no personal quarrel. Yet now I have thrown myself into the battle regardless of consequences, exposed my person to the risk of wounds and fought bloody battles to their bitter end. And why? That I might be the means of ridding my country of a rebel and---for the private advantage of your family. Yet you, heeding the slanderous tongue of certain counselor, formerly withheld the supplies absolutely necessary to me, and so I suffered defeat. How can you explain, General?"	» MaChaChao -- oooh -- Go Sun Jian! » guanping -- Diplomatic as well -- notice how he just says Yuan Shu was badly advised. Accusing Yuan Shu outright of failure would have been a very risky gamble
4 Yuan Shu, confused and frightened, had no word to reply. He ordered the death of the slanderer to placate Sun Jian.	» robert -- Excuse. -- Yuan Shu: "Uh... they told me to do it! It had nothing to do with my extreme prejeduce towards you! No, not at all, it's just some bad advice." What a bastard. If he had honor he would have ordered his own death. » Solace -- well... -- I suppose the point could be made that if he had honour he would have sent the supplies in the first place. » robert -- indeed -- good point
5 Then suddenly they told Sun Jian, "Some officer has come riding down from the Pass to see you, General. He is in the camp."
6 Sun Jian therefore took his leave and returned to his own camp, where he found the visitor was Li Jue, one of the much trusted commanders of Dong Zhuo.
7 "Wherefore come you?" said Sun Jian.
8 Li Jue replied, "You are the one person for whom my master has respect and admiration, and he sends me to arrange a matrimonial alliance between the two families. He wishes that his daughter may become the wife of your son."	» atomicwillie -- oookkk -- that is kind of a random thing to be doing in the middle of a war. just walk up to a guy and say "hey sun jian, my daughter wants to marry your son" i mean, come on! » Pluvius -- That's the way diplomacy works. -- Marriage is the best way to cement good relations between two warlords. It tends to keep both of them honest, as anyone who goes to war against an in-law is looked upon as extremely untrustworthy, which would be a great disadvantage in a situation where many people have the power to turn against you. » Reboot -- Sun Jian -- References thus far has shown that Sun Jian is not impassive to promotions, connections, and other opportunities of advancement. Given that he leads the Van, and has developed a grudge with the coalition no thanks to Yuan Shu, makes this a viable option for the Dong Zhuo camp to try, I think. » MaTseng -- how many damn daughters does this guy have? -- Niu Fu and Li Ru already have two of dong zhou's daughters and the way he's offering em out it sounds like he's got a good stock of em lol
9 "What! Dong Zhuo, that rebel and renegade, that subverter of the Throne! I wish I could destroy his nine generations as a thank-offering to the empire! Think you I would be willing to have an alliance with such a family? I will not slay you as I ought, but go, and go quickly! Yield the Pass and I may spare your lives. If you delay, I will grind your bones to powder and make mincemeat of your flesh!"	» JiaGai -- Too bad -- Sun Jian shoulda killed him. Would save everyone a lot of trouble soon enough. » Solace -- A man of honour and integrity -- despite being wronged by the family leading the confederacy, and by his own admission having no personal quarrel with Dong Zhuo, he doesn't even consider Li Jue's proposal for a moment. » iamnick -- 3 leaders -- It seems like Cao Cao is the kind of person to see that they are at point A, and that they need to get to point B, and so he goes straight there, even though it may be seen as cruel or harsh. Liu Bei seems to think only of how to help the most people thus far (i havn't read any furhter yet), but what of Sun Jian? He seems to me to be the most capable warrior and very righteous, although he did retain his postion during the time of the Eunuchs, so maybe not. » Tiamatty -- Poetic -- Quite the descriptive way of rejecting the offer, don't you think? I especially like the "grind your bomnes to pwder and make mincemeat of your flesh" part. Sun Jian was able to be fairly righteous, because he was independently wealthy. He could afford quite easily to bribe the eunuchs without taxing the people to do it. He was nobler than Cao Cao, more practical than Liu Bei, and could whoop either of their asses in a straight-out one-on-one fight. And he was damned sexy, to boot.
10 Li Jue threw his arms over his head and ran out. He returned to his master and told him what a rude reception he had met with. Dong Zhuo asked his adviser Li Ru how to reply to this.
11 Li Ru said, "Lu Bu's late defeat had somewhat blunted the edge of our army's desire for battle. It would be well to return to the capital and remove the Emperor to Changan, as the street children had been lately singing:
12 "A Han on the west, a Han on the east. The deer (emperor) in Changan shall worry least."	» LordTyrant -- Singing Children -- It seems the children in this book are smarter and more foresighted than many advisiors and officials throughout the novel! » Shokyo -- Wonderful lil' ankle biters, aren't they =3 -- Lovely technical technique employed by Luo Guanzhong. I guess the best example to compare this to is the Fool from Shakespeare's King Lear; Goneril and Regan are flattering the King, and Lear thinks love is a concept as simple as flattery, and that can be quantitated. The Fool tells the audience what is going on from a middleway and sensible view. When Lear learns what it is to be poor and sees the world for how it is, the Fool goes, and Lear becomes his own fool. The kids see the world for what it is, being young and pure, and they make little ditties out of it. So it's really Luo's way of telling the story from an (almost) unbiased point of view. » CMung -- Kids say the darndest things -- Reminds me a bit of a Greek Chorus
13 Li Ru continued, "If you think out this couplet, it applies to the present juncture. Half the first line refers to the founder of the dynasty, Liu Bang the Supreme Ancestor, who became ruler in the western city of Changan, which was the capital during twelve reigns. The other half corresponds to Liu Xiu the Latter Han Founder who ruled from Luoyang, the eastern capital during twelve latter reigns. The revolution of the heavens brings us back to this starting moment. Thus if you remove to Changan, there will be no need for anxiety."	» SkyAnimal -- *shakes his head* -- Unless the Chinese holds deeper meaning then what is coming thru the translation, I would not attribute that analysis to the couplet. » Seraph -- Whatever works -- He turned out to be safe for the time being, so it looks like the children on the street where once again correct. While I was typing this, I had a thought. Maybe you could trick a ruler into playing right into a trap by paying the street childrren to sing a poem that meant something like "head east for safety", while laying a trap to the east. It's a long shot, but then again, the CIA put explosive sea shells along the Cuba coast in the hopes Fidel would pick up that exact sea shell. Odd, isn't it? » MrLuBu -- Your idea's good -- just the CIA are dumb » nuccha -- Han dynasty -- Is this where the terms Eastern Han and Western Han are taken from? Or are these terms already in use in the 3K period? » Seraph -- Those terms have long been in use by this point. -- The basic idea is this: the Han has had two capitals at this point. The Eastern capital (old capital) is Luo Yang. The Western capital (new capital) is Chang An. The second capital came about during a rebellion, if I recall correctly. » guanping -- um actually Lou Yang is the new one -- Wang Mang took over control and then killed himself when he was defeated(poor guy meant well) so for lucks sake, and barbarians it was moved to Lou Yang » Seraph -- So I got them backwards -- Sue me : P At least I got the basic gist of it right, right? Shaddup. » guanping -- yes just a minor correction
14 Dong Zhuo was exceedingly pleased and said, "Had you not spoken thus, I should not have understood!"	» Creslin -- Sounds like someone agrees with Skyanimal.
15 Then taking Lu Bu with him, Dong Zhuo started at once for Capital Luoyang.
16 Here he called all the officials to a great council in the Palace and addressed them, "After two centuries of rule here, the royal fortune has been exhausted, and I perceive that the aura of rule has migrated to Changan, whither I now desire to move the court. All you had better pack up for the journey."	» guanping -- or die
17 Yang Biao, Minister of the Interior, said, "I pray you reflect. The Land Within the Passes is all destruction. There is no reason to renounce the ancestral temples and abandon the imperial tombs here. I fear the people will be alarmed. It is easy to alarm them but difficult to pacify them."	» Explainer -- Guanzhong -- The Land Within the Passes, or Guanzhong, was the area surrounding Changan.
18 "Do you oppose the state plans?" said Dong Zhuo angrily.	» nuccha -- wow, he trusts Li Ru soooo much!
19 Another official, Grand Commander Huang Wan, supported his colleague, "In the era of Recommencement (AD 23-25), Fan Chong of the Red Eyebrows rebels burned Changan to the ground and reduced the place to broken tiles. The inhabitants scattered all but a few. It is wrong to abandon these palaces here for a wasteland."	» Explainer -- The Red Eyebrows -- In the ending years of Wang Mang's usurpation (reigned AD 9 - 23), rebels ran the country. The Red Eyebrows rebels were one of the most active of the robber bands. They finally captured Changan in AD 23, and Wang Mang was killed in the fighting.
20 Dong Zhuo replied, "The East of the Passes is full of sedition, and all the empire is in rebellion. The city of Changan is protected by the Yaohan Mountains and the Hangu Pass. Moreover, it is near Longyou, whence can be easily brought timber, stone, brick, and building materials. In a month or so palaces can be erected. So an end to your wild words!"
21 Yet Minister of Works Xun Shuang raised another protest against disturbing the people, but Dong Zhuo overbore him also.
22 "How can I stop to consider a few common people when my scheme affects the empire?" said Dong Zhuo.	» jolteony -- Heh, Dong Zhuo here speaks well. -- I think it's one of the few lines he actually speaks wisely.
23 That day the three objectors---Yang Biao, Huang Wan, and Xun Shuang---were removed from their offices and reduced to the rank of commoners.	» ZhaoYunalmighty -- They should be grateful the pig didnt behead them on the spot. Musta been Li Ru's doing. » blackdagger -- The rank of commoners? -- Wow.... this really was the age of war... every person was labeled by rank... from commander to commoner. » guanping -- I think it meant stripped of rank, possessions and beaten away from court
24 As Dong Zhuo went out to get into his coach, he met two other officers who made obeisance. They were the Chair of the Secretariat, Zhou Bi, and the Commander of the City Gates, Wu Qiong. Dong Zhuo stopped and asked them what they wanted.
25 Said Zhou Bi, "We venture to try to dissuade you from moving the capital to Changan."
26 Dong Zhuo replied, "You two persuaded me to give Yuan Shao office. Now he has already turned traitor, and you are of the same party!"
27 And without more ado he bade his guards take both outside the city and put them to death. The command to remove to the new capital immediately was issued.	» Elemental -- Dong Zhuo just killed alot of his officers. -- It doesn't hurt to have alot of officers, he should have spared them. » SkyAnimal -- I disagree -- Hope you're not thinking of the video game. To solidify his rule, Dong Zhuo needs to get rid of detractors and potential turncoats. He bought off a lot of people at first, yes. Now he is seeing who is sticking with him and who is abandoning him. Good way to find out who really supports, actually, and all under the pretense of moving the capital. » Seraph -- Also, a lot of people were probably willing to turn on him after witnessing his atrocities. -- This is pretty much pre-empting an assasination attempt or mutiny. Though despicable, he is indeed securing his positition. » Shokyo -- Smart, sadastic and ambitious... not a good mix (for everyone else I mean.) » nlink -- Yeah... but how was killing these two a method of removing potential detractors and turncoats? -- They were trying to dissuade him from moving to Changan simply for the good of the people. Dong Zhuo, as we will see in a few paragraphs, would commit great atrocities against Luoyang and its citizens in his move to Changan. Plus, is there proof that they are traitors, or did the bully Dong Zhuo just accused them right there and put them to death? » Rahonavis -- Command -- In Dong Zhuo's case he did what other dictators would do centuries later. Remove any and all obstacles. Absolute power requires everyone else to submit. You are then, not only making a point but you're showing a will of iron not to be dissuaded from your point of view or action. » Seraph -- The main idea is to discourage rebellion through fear -- In this case, Dong is showing that even a hint of rebellion will lead to execution; these two are opposed to his actions, so he executes them as an example. As Rahonavis pointed out, this is a very common practice among dictators.
28 Speaking to Dong Zhuo, Li Ru pointed out, "We are short of money and food, and the rich people of Luoyang could be easily plundered. This is a good occasion to link them to the rebels and to confiscate their properties."	» darkknight -- li ru... so smart, yet so evil... » Patricoo -- You gotta give Li Ru some credit. -- He was good at his job. I bet he wasn't a skilled fighter, and if he was he could have been a great leader. » LordTyrant -- Li Ru... still the smartest advisior so far -- even if he does use... intresting means to solve problems. A lot like Cao Cao actually. » Tiamatty -- Li Ru -- His best moment is always going to be throwing the former Empress out the window. 'Whup! Out ya go!'
29 Dong Zhuo sent five thousand troops out to plunder and slay. They captured many thousand wealthy householders and, having stuck flags on their heads saying they were Traitors and Rebels, drove them out of the city and put them to death. Their properties were all seized.	» _Rave -- Damn.. -- Recently i got DW3 i was hooked so i looked for information on which the game was based and here i am. I love being able to learn about something i enjoy, but as i've been reading i cant help but think about how big of an a-- hole some of these people were. » _Wu Han Tian -- re: -- When you talk about people in times of chaos, it sorta comes with the territory. » AkiraJiao -- you know i aggree with that, Dong Zhuo can be an a--hole -- yet none before now have tried to kill him EXCEPT Zhang Fei too bad his brothers stopped him. :( » HeroOfChaos -- Cao Cao tried to kill him too... -- and i totally agree on the fact that this guy's a f...in a-hole
30 The task of driving forth the inhabitants, some millions, was given to two of Dong Zhuo's commanders, Li Jue and Guo Si. The people were sent off in bands, each band between two parties of soldiers, who drove them torward Changan. Enormous numbers fell by the road side and died in the ditches, and the escort plundered the fugitives and defiled the women. A wail of sorrow arose to the very sky.	» SkyAnimal -- Population -- "Millions"? Other then Rome, I don't see a city in ancient times having over a million inhabitants. For one, santitation becomes difficult even in small cities. Secondly, to have a large city means you have a large population supplying the food for it. I can see a few thousand being driven out. But in refering to rich people (or just anybody of worth) would not be that many, even for a capital city like Louyang. » JiaGai -- The number "millions" doesn't have to be literal. -- Like many numerical figures in the book, it could be a symbolic figure that simply meant "a whole freakin' lot." As a sidenote, do you know for a fact that the Chinese weren't capable of the same architectural and logistical feats that allowed Roman cities to house larger than normal populations? China has always had a massive population to begin with, a problem that plagues them to this day. A high city population doesn't seem unheard of to me. » Seraph -- It could simply be a device to make Dong Zhuo look worse -- After all, what's worse. Displacing some thousands, or displacing some millions. This would make him seem much more the villain. But Jia Gai is correct, it would not be hard to imagine a large population in a city, especially after such a peaceful and prosperous stretch as the Han Dynasty, right up to the Y.T rebellion, which would not have such a large effect so quickly. » Solace -- The author was quite correct in his assertion -- Luoyang of the latter 2nd century had well over a million inhabitants. Many chinese cities of this era would have dwarfed their european counterparts. Considering China's fertile farmland and advanced agricultural techniques, it's not so very hard to imagine how the empire could have grown to such an impressive population. » Laguna Cottage -- Megacity is a modern development... -- Some millions of habitants might very well include the whole rural area around Luoyang. Dong Zhuo may have used the "scorch the earth" tactic like some of you suggest, and denied the alliance a support area. During the Mongol rule, China had a population of 100 million. The capital Dadu (or Great Capital, today Beijing), serving as the main trade hub within the Mongol empire, had only 500,000 city dwellers (AD 1300). Furthermore, Beijing in 1940 had a population of only 3 million, and that was due mainly to the suburban sprawling (an expanding definition of what a city is). Therefore, I doubt Luoyang can have one million people back to AD 200. Industrial and service jobs are not there to support such a number. Most of the people live in farmlands back then. Recall, when the two young emperors fled, they only needed to walk awhile to see a farm. » jolteony -- If I'm not mistaken... -- the new Chang'An made by the Ming dynasty around 1000, I think it was housed 5 million people, and had everything geometrically designed... » Tiamatty -- Suspension of disbelief -- China had a substantial population at that time, 60 million according to Paul Frankenstein. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a city with its surrounding areas reaching well upwards of a million. As for whether or not Luoyang did have over a million inhabitants and nearby dwellers - it did for the story.
31 Dong Zhuo's final orders as he left Capital Luoyang were to burn the whole city: Houses, palaces, temples, and everything were devoured by the flames. The capital became but a patch of scorched earth.	» Yorak -- DW4 -- I love Dong Zhuo's quote when torching Luoyang in DW4. "As long as my dream comes to fruition, I can sacrifice a capital city... or two... or three..." » Melchiot -- Reply -- There'll be none left at the rate he's going. » Shokyo -- He''ll keep Meiwo -- or build another. » Rahonavis -- Burnt up -- It's no different in how the Russians fended off Napoleon. Burn the place to the ground and leave nothing for the enemy. A typical 'scorched earth' tactic. » Yorak -- the difference -- No, there's a big difference between the burning of Luoyang and the Russian Scorched Earth campaign. Napoleon's invading force was a large foreign army on hostile ground, facing a hostile population. The Russians burnt everything to wear down the invading army, so it could gain nothing from the surrounding area. These armies, however, are all Chinese armies fighting on Chinese soil, and they're coming from all over. Furthermore, this wasn't part of an ongoing campaign to wear out the allied forces; we don't see Dong Zhuo razing all the farms in the province and laying all sorts of pitfalls in Tiger Trap Pass. Burning Luoyang isn't going to fatally cripple the allied supply line, nor do I think it was an attempt to. It's both an action to demoralize his enemy - the allies did all that fighting and all they got for it was a pile of rubble and ashes, while Dong Zhuo escapes unscathed and still in power - and a matter of spite. "If I can't have Luoyang, no one will!" » darkknight -- yorak -- when you say these armies are all of the same nation, the people probably didn't see it like that. China is a huge country. they probably class each lord having their country/countries and they refer to China as being the world
32 Dong Zhuo sent Lu Bu to desecrate the tombs of the emperors and their consorts for the jewels therein, and the common soldiers took the occasion to dig up the graves of officials and plunder the cemeteries of the wealthy. The spoil of the city, gold and silver, pearls and silks, and beautiful ornaments, filled several thousand carts. With these and the persons of the Emperor and his household, Dong Zhuo moved off to the new capital in the first year of Inauguration of Tranquillity (AD 190).	» Elemental -- OMG -- I didn't think Dong Zhuo would go as far as to rob the tombs of emperors! Or dig up graves..! » zhangfeirocks -- ur wrong -- of course he would, he was an asswhole and had lu bu. he didn't care. with lu bu he wasn't scared of anything or anyone. » SkyAnimal -- Got to admire his thoroughness -- I mean, talk about cracking the bones to get at the marrow, Dong Zhuo cleaned house and then some. His tactics were over the top, but he leaves a scorched earth for his opposition. » Solace -- Dong had just displaced the entire population of the capital, and set the city afire -- I doubt a little grave pillaging gave him pause. He had no respect for the living, why would he have any respect for the dead? One could always make the argument that he feared his enemies would loot the graves if he didn't do it first. Several thousand cart loads of treasure would have made for pretty sweet spoils of war.
33 Luoyang being thus abandoned, the general of Dong Zhuo at River Si Pass, Zhao Cen, evacuated that post of vantage, which Sun Jian at once occupied. Liu Bei and his brothers took Tiger Trap Pass and the confederate lords advanced.
34 Sun Jian hastened to the late capital which was still in flames. When he arrived, dense smoke hung all over it and spread for miles around. No living thing, not a fowl, or a dog, or a human being, remained. Sun Jian told off his soldiers to extinguish the fires and set out camping places for the confederate lords.	» zhangfeirocks -- retard! -- why would sun jian waste the water. the capital city had already been burning for a while and was probably reduced to ruins by the time Sun jian got there. » JiaGai -- It isn't a waste. -- Fires can burn for a long, long time and makes the city unsafe for occupying. The fires NEED to be extinguished as a first step to restoring order to the ravaged capital. » ScottieTheNerd -- Health concerns -- I hear living in a burning city is bad for your health. Sun Jian was quite proficient in these matters, I deem. » MaxBrains -- Not that much water -- In these times, it would be impossible to bring enough water and use it efficiently enough to put out a fire, especially one of this size. Likely, Sun Jian's troops first removed anything flamable that wasn't already a flaming rubble, and then tried to put out the flames themselves by throwing dirt on them.
35 Cao Cao went to see Yuan Shao and said, "Dong Zhuo has gone west. We ought to follow and attack his rear without loss of time. Why do you remain inactive?"
36 "All our colleagues are worn out, and there is nothing to be gained by attack," said Yuan Shao.	» guanping -- How are you worn out? -- there guys have only marched a bit and they have a lot of fresh troops to pursue with. An attack would have been good » Reboot -- Yuan Shao -- Hence we are shown Yuan Shao's reluctance to follow through his decisions. » dugquatro -- what a moron -- he could have just given CaoCao another army that didnt fight that day » jolteony -- lol, you forgot most people were relocated to saving what was left... -- and even if they weren't, they were fatigued by the combats in River Si and Tiger Trap Passes. If Yuan Shao told that without really having some number of worn out soldier, people would think he wasn't made to be a general nor to lead a confederation. (although he really wasn't :P)
37 Cao Cao said, "This moment was most propitious in the utter confusion that reigned---palaces burned, the Emperor abducted, the whole world upset, and no one knowing whither to turn. The villain will soon be ended, and a single blow could exterminate Dong Zhuo. Why not pursue?"
38 But all the confederate lords seemed of one mind, and that mind was to postpone action. So they did nothing.	» LiaoHua -- UN -- I see them all as members of the UN and none of them want to attack Dong Zhuo except Cao Cao. Cao Cao would be like the US wanting to attack Iraq and Yuan Shao and the others don't want to attack. So he/US go and attack Dong Zhuo/Iraq. Notice the similarity? » Seraph -- Err.... -- except that Dong posed an actual threat... and that Cao Cao was intelligent... and the "others" did attack in this case... and the list goes on... » LiaoHua -- hmmm... -- Well some countries like Britan helped but a lot of countries wanted to stay out of it and theirs no telling wat they might have done if the US and England didn't get involved, i mean its not exactly the same but their are some similarities right? » jolteony -- and don't compare technological OR numerical advantages -- First US have Apache's which all it takes is looking through sensors to destroy an entire regiment of tanks, US has bombers and stealth fighters, Iraq had obsolete equipment. Here Dong Zhuo's troops are as well trained and equiped as the "rebels" plus Cao Cao attacking alone makes Dong Zhuo's troop count much greater in comparison to Cao Cao's force. » Seraph -- Sorry for putting a little political bias in there -- I would equate this much more with the powers in WW2 seeing Poland overrun but not really doing anything. The Nazis obliterated the Polish, but left their westenr flank open to attack, an oppurtunity the French ignored. Instead of ending the conflict wihtout a large mess, the Allies allowed a horrific genocide and the bloodiest war in history simply because they chose not to act.
39 "Those unworthy people cannot discuss worthy thing!" cried Cao Cao.	» Notorious -- Man of Action -- He knows what matters in the big picture, his bravery shown again, when no body do anything he put himself to do things that others despite » Michael M. Pettit -- post -- It's also likely why the common picture painted of him is that of a tyrant. Whereas many were content to sit and do nothing, Cao Cao was, as you eloquently put it, a man of action. Everyone else does nothing, and he would defy orders to support theory of "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself." Heck of a leader. Pity that he's always at my throat if I'm his neighbor in ROTK. » Koga No Goshi -- LOL, I haven't said anything so far but the posters here are so obviously Cao Cao lovers. -- You could equally admire as well as criticize his actions as rash and ill-planned. Look how many times Cao Cao's "man of action" qualities got him in trouble. » _Toastah -- Reply -- the "man of action" could have prevented all of this from happening if he'd simply killed Dong Zhuo when he had the chance. » _anonymous -- Well, so could have Liu Bei when he had the chance. or the emperor. or the eunuchs. or Lu Bu. » _Wu Han Tian -- Cao Cao lover? -- If I sound like I'm in love with Cao Cao or something I appologize, he's not my type. Regardless of what happens later, you have to admire Cao Cao in a moment like this, when all the other generals are content to "wait it out" as it were. All the great commanders have their moments, and this one is Cao Cao's. » lord_alden -- Cao Cao Lover? What a Laugh. -- Its not that some of us love Cao Cao, its just he was damn good at what he did. He was smart, strong, and he handled his army well. There is no doubt that of the Three Kingdoms, his was the most well handled. He had many talented officers flock under him, and his skills as far as militarily, were almost peerless. He at one point had a naval commander(Cai Mao), and attempted a naval battle(which he would have won if the fire attack did not succeed), even though his proficiency in war was mainly plainsland battles and anything on land. You don't give him enough credit. Albeit, my fave kingdom has always been Shu, and my fave men Zhao Yun and Zhuge Liang(mainly because I'm so much like both, brave and selfless, as well as uncommonly intellgent)I do give credit to the other two when it is deserved. » Solens -- Cao Cao -- You are sooooo modest lord_alden. Anyway, Cao Cao was also a scholar and poet. He was definately much cleverer than the other rulers. This is one point I like about him. Personally, he is the ruler whom I like the 2nd best with Liu Bei at the front. » zhangfeirocks -- i don't agree -- Cao Cao was as stupid as shit. Everyone knows that Dong Zhuo had a lot of followers, even though he had most of them killed. if they were to attack the back of the army, the whole army would turn around and it would have been suicide. Cao Cao should have gone by himself and died, then he wouldn't be such a fuckin pest later on. he should have accepted that everyone had a better idea than him and not be such a brat. » JiaGai -- Your hatred of Cao Cao is dully noted. -- However, consider a few things. Dong Zhuo was on the run and was laden down with all the things he had pillaged from Luoyang. Despite having Lu Bu at his beck and call, he was still vulnerable now that he was outside the protective confines of the city. Yuan Shao had a tremendous amount of support as well as many leaders as capable as Dong Zhuo's. That Yuan Shao and others completely neglected this fact is to his fault, not Cao Cao's. Cao Cao, believing he is right, DOES go off and attacks on his own. He shows initiative and drive, and proves he's far more capable a leader than any of the others gathered under Yuan Shao. » ScottieTheNerd -- Overall strategy -- Cao Cao was justified in his decision to pursue the fleeing Dong Zhuo and crush him. With or without Lu Bu, a heavily laden army will be hard-pressed. Cao Cao wants to end it here, but apparently no one else is. zhangfeirocks, have you even considered the situation? If your enemy is on the run, would it not be the best time to attack? Would you rather wait until he has regrouped and rebuilt himself, THEN attacking? » Michael M. Pettit -- And another thing ... -- If you attack the back of an army, heavy-laden and in the process of a retreat, you have that edge. Even if you fail and get driven off, you've probably put a sizable dent in the number of his followers, and made it take that much longer for him to regroup, possibly even opening him up to get attacked by someone else. Why would you let a tyrant with so many followers run away and regroup when you have a chance to strike while they're quite vulnerable? Ask Yuan Shao, cause he let them get away. I personally stand by Sima Yi's quote about "the five possible operations of an army". If you don't know what I'm talking about, just read on, and you'll find it. Suffice it to say ... if the enemy still exists and you can launch an offensive against, then do it. Cao Cao told them this, and they didn't listen so he took it upon himself to attack rather than sit on his butt, or waste more time telling Yuan Shao to get off of his. For that, he deserves at the very least an "A" for effort. » darkknight -- cao cao -- i'm no lover of cao cao, but he was a brilliant leader and administrator and he is exactly right here. if liu bei and sun jian were there, they would have gone, because they were that little bit smarter and better than most » Reboot -- Cao Cao -- As part of character development, Cao Cao probably realised by this point that every one of his fellow lords are weak. This observation have helped him decide to "restore Han" in his own way rather than trust it on his peers. » guanping -- Retreats are always messy, and the rear guard will take heavy damage... -- Look at WW1, with Britian's first days in the war, the the 100 day advance and the push by the Germans that caused it. Look at WW2, Dunkirk and Africa. Just some recent examples but my point is in a half decent pursuit, the rear guard is going to take a huge blow, and if broken in time, the retreating troops are in trouble. Thus Cao Cao was advising the right thing, although insulting his peers does not seem the smartest thing to do.
40 Then, he and his six generals---Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Li Dian, and Yue Jing---and ten thousand troops started in pursuit.	» WeiYanYan -- Yue Jing? -- I'm a big fan of the Dynasty Warriors serie, and I'm just wondering, does Yue Jing=Yue Jin? » Super Dian Wei -- Hey Wei Yan Yan, Yue Jing IS Yue Jin. -- When you play DW, Wei has two officers that sound alot alike: Yue Jin and Yu Jin. Since this book mentions a Yue Jing, but never talks about any Yue Jin, it leads one to believe that Yue Jing and Yue Jin are the same person. » Elemental -- I'm pretty sure that Yue Jing is the same Yue Jin. -- Sometimes names are different. It all depends on the type of romanization that is used to translate the names. » Explainer -- Yeah, Yue Jing is Yue Jin (we added a letter "g" to make it further different from Yu Jin.)
41 The road to the new capital led through Yingyang. When Dong Zhuo reached it, Governor Xu Rong went to welcome the cavalcade.	» HeroOfChaos -- funny -- Ying Yang. I know, I know its not that funny. Just thought I'd point this out.... Sometimes I'm like that.
42 Li Ru said, "As there is some danger of pursuit, it would be well to order the Governor of this place to lay an ambush outside the city. He is to let the pursuers pass and be ready to cut off their retreat, when our army beats them off. That will teach any others not to follow."	» guanping -- Why does so good a strategist have to serve Dong Zhuo? » WUuuu -- Because he's powerful » LordPhan -- Son-in-law -- Li Ru is Dong Zhou's Son-in-law, and serves him thus. :P » capgun -- thats ironic, usually today people dislike their in-laws
43 Then Dong Zhuo ordered Lu Bu to command the rear guard. Very soon they saw Cao Cao coming up, and Lu Bu laughed at his colleague's foresight. He set out his troops in fighting order.
44 Cao Cao rode forward, crying, "Rebels, abductors, drovers of the people, where are you going?"
45 Lu Bu replied, "Treacherous simpleton, what mad words are these?"
46 Then from Cao Cao army rode forth Xiahou Dun with his spear set, and Lu Bu and Xiahou Dun engaged. The combat had hardly begun when Li Ru with a cohort came in from the left. Cao Cao bade Xiahou Yuan meet this onslaught. However, on the other side appeared Guo Si and his company. Cao Cao sent Cao Ren against Guo Si. The onrush on three sides was too much to withstand, and Lu Bu's army was overwhelming, so Xiahou Dun had to retire to the main line. Thereupon Lu Bu's armored troops attacked and completed the defeat. The beaten army of Cao Cao turned toward Yingyang.	» zhangfeirocks -- hah! -- i knew this would happen. Cao Cao was an idiot! i knew he would be defeated! » iluvNDfootball -- To Zhangfeirocks -- Cao Cao was foolish, and he sould not have gone. Does that make him an idot? He was impetuos, and is now a wiser person. » ScottieTheNerd -- zhangfeirocks -- Who's the idiot here? The one who seized the opportunity to deal a crushing a blow, or the one who refuses to do so? » SkyAnimal -- Cao Cao was being attacked from three sides, and what did he do? He fought. -- Someone else would run away. Cao Cao stood up to the enemy. » Seraph -- Still, it would be more beneficial to withdraw to a more strategic location -- And fight Lu Bu's army there. Sure, it was wise to seize the opportunity, but if he found himself in a bad position he should have withdrawn while X. Yuan fought of the enemy. If Lu Bu pursued the retreating Cao, then Cao Cao could have struck a desisive blow. Charging headlong into an enemy without a plan is never a wise move. » Shokyo -- I'd rarther be in trouble for doing something than not doing anything at all. -- By the way that's not my quote, it comes from a book called Hornblower; it's kind of like the Sharpe series I have mentioned once in a side note but it's about the navy. And just quickly, Cao Cao was not an idiot; he was one of the greatest scholars of the time. He may not be as smart now as he was later in the books but he was human, and we all have to learn. » SkyAnimal -- Hornblower and Sharpe -- Yes, C.S. Forester's "Hornblower" series is quite good. » Elemental -- post -- Yes, Cao Cao was a rather able tactician, but he is a human, and makes mistakes. » LuBoyan -- Cao Cao as a tactician -- I don't think he was more than an average tactician, but he was a better than able strategist. » JiaGai -- There is another incident where he shows this ability. -- Cao Cao was very much a skilled tactician AND strategist. He may not have always won, but who does? » Lushu -- it could have been better -- If the other leaders would have listen to him,Dong Zhou's head would been on a plate. » Ragnarok -- The fault there was timing. -- Cao Cao acted upon a chance. As Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi or any other capable strategist would of done. It was a mistake that could not be accounted for when Xu Rong got involved. If he had a few precious hours earlier, Dong Zhuo would be destroyed. As for Cao Cao, not being an able tactician. Look at Guandu, or even look at his books. Mengde was amongst the greats of the era. » darkknight -- the only reason he lost was because... -- he lacked manpower, if yuan shao and the rest followed, they would have won » IloveNDfootball -- Or the entire army would have walked into the ambush, and been badly defeated. » HeroOfChaos -- Who knows? -- It didnt happen so no one knows what would've been the outcome if the others had followed Cao Cao, I think they would have won. Just because you walk in an ambush doesnt mean certain defeat for you... » IloveNDfootball -- Imagine this scenario -- A massive army comes marching in. They are in a tight formation, a marching formation. Suddenly a force of about their size comes out. Shooting arrows, swinging swords. Suddenly the massive army isn't so massive. Then again, some commander might have realized the ambush possibility and prepared. So we don't know. Personally, I think once the trap was sprung, Dong Zhuo had won.
47 They got as far as the foot of a hill in the evening about the second watch, and the moon made it as light as day. Here they halted to reform. Just as they were burying the boilers to prepare a meal, there arose a great noise of shouting on all sides and out came the troops of Governor Xu Rong from the ambush fresh to attack.
48 Cao Cao, thrown into a flurry, mounted and fled. He ran right in the way of the waiting Xu Rong. Then he dashed off in another direction, but Xu Rong shot an arrow after him which struck him in the shoulder. The arrow still in the wound, Cao Cao fled for his life. As he went over the hill, two soldiers lying in wait among the grass suddenly dashed out and wounded his horse, which fell and rolled over. And as he slipped from the saddle, he was seized and made prisoner.	» Koga No Goshi -- Willing to give his life for the cause ey? LOL » dgr81 -- as with all great people... -- they are afraid to die before they have accomplished any great thing. » _moogs -- Cao Cao great? -- It doesn't seem to me he has done very many great things so far. Sure, he's been a man of action but he's failed utterly in his 2 attempts to do anything great. He failed to assassinate Dong Zhuo and he walked an entire army right into a waiting trap, both times left running with his tail between his legs. Then there's butchering an entire family of innocent people. Someone should try and explain all this adoration for Cao Cao on this website. » lord_alden -- Hmm. -- I see a point in both of your arguements. The truly great man is Liu Bei though. Many forget to mention his name. Let us not forget he started basically as a mere pauper, and was only a magistrate when he and his brothers 'defeated' Lu Bu, as well as Guan Yu kickin Hua Xiong's can, and, without a land, leading people who loved him for his virtue and selflessness, away from the 'evil' Cao Cao and the dire grips of tyrannical nature. » HeroOfChaos -- Cao Cao -- Cao Cao IS GREAT and as i've seen so far he's my fav character because he's impulsive and violent and i like that. Cao Cao RULES!! » darkknight -- The best -- They are all great leaders. Liu Bei is the good guy everyone likes; Cao Cao is sly like a fox so treated as a villain; and Sun Quan is a good leader. » atomicwillie -- wait a sec -- if i was cao cao, i would have run all the way accros china if lu bu was following me. on foot. with no shoes (lol sry for the exaggeration, i just like lu bu :-)) i dont see why cao cao camped that close to him in the first place. he shoulda taken his army back to yuan shao and the allies » HeroOfChaos -- lol -- That was my first post here, things have changed now. I don't see this book the way I did before. But I still like Cao Cao though and I still think he is the best leader.
49 Just then a horseman came, riding at full speed and whirling his sword up, cut down both the captors, and rescued Cao Cao. It was Cao Hong.
50 Cao Cao said, "I am doomed, good brother. Go and save yourself!"
51 "My lord, mount my horse quickly! I will go afoot," said Cao Hong.
52 "If those wretches come up, what then?" said Cao Cao.
53 "The world can do without Cao Hong, but not without you, my lord!"	» _Sam B. -- Good for Cao Hong to give his horse for his lord. -- The reason being if Cao Cao died, the story would not be the same. » RepublicanGuard -- It's actually kind of funny. -- Cao Cao owes his life to a couple of generals sacrificing their horse to let him ride instead. Not only Cao Hong, but later also his son Cao Ang at Wan Castle [Wancheng]. » darkknight -- horse givers -- they said the same thing too » LiaoHua -- DW -- Screw Cao Ren, Cao Hong should have been a playable character in DW not Cao Ren » Seraph -- This was Cao Hong's only moment to shine... -- All other times he seems to fall into the curse of Cao incompetence along with many other family members. Cao Ren shouldn't have been playable though; Deng Ai or Cao Pi would have been better. » JiaGai -- Cao Hong actually had a few other shining moments. -- I wouldn't call him spectacular by any means, but Cao Hong had his uses. » WUuuu -- Not every general was a hero for the Sagas -- But just surviving as long as Hong did in a time of such chaos and war is pretty impressive. » LiaoHua -- I still think he was better then Cao Ren » Yakasotah -- Sorry to ruin the novel mood but... -- Cao Ren is EXTREMELY underrated novelwise. Historically he was one of the best Wei generals, but you don't get to see this since the novel only shows his losses. » TiangFu -- True. -- The book is also Biased toward Shu. Funny, or ironic, the original writer was the EXACT opposite. He was biased towards Wei. » LiaoHua -- Cao Ren -- Um, in that case ignore my remark about Cao Ren
54 "If I live, I shall owe you my life," said Cao Cao.
55 So he mounted. Cao Hong tore off his own breastplate, gripped his sword, and went on foot after the horse. Thus they proceeded till the fourth watch when they saw before them a broad stream, and behind they still heard the shouts of pursuers drawing nearer and nearer.	» HeroOfChaos -- watch -- call me stupid but what's a watch? From the beginning they always say on the second watch, on the fourth watch ect. » JiaGai -- Units of time -- A watch is a unit of time, much like how we use hours. I can't remember how long a watch is compared to modern timekeeping, but I think it was roughly two hours or so. » Explainer -- A watch is 2 hours... -- A day has 12 watches, and the first watch starts around 11:00 PM (please correct me). » SkyAnimal -- Time -- Sounds about right. In nautical terms, they make reference to "send the watch below," meaning that they kept a few crew members on the main deck for two or so hours at a time. It is either two or four hours, but two sounds right. » LordSunQuan -- yep -- i looked it up its about 2 hours and 5 mins i think
56 "This is my fate," said Cao Cao. "I am really doomed!"	» capgun -- But Wait, theres more! -- (in somewhat cheesy action hero announcer voice) Cao Cao can't be doomed this early can he? What about Cao Hong? Find out in the next paragraph of ROTK
57 Cao Hong helped Cao Cao down from his horse. Then taking off his fighting robe and helmet, Cao Hong took the wounded man on his back and waded into the stream. When they reached the further side, the pursuers had already gained the bank whence they shot arrows.
58 Cao Cao all wet pushed on. Dawn was near. They went on another ten miles and then sat down to rest under a precipice. Suddenly loud shouting was heard and a party of horse appeared. It was Governor Xu Rong who had forded the river higher up. Just at this moment Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan, with several dozens men, came along.	» CaoCaoForever -- Hey they came... -- HERE they are! » zhangfeirocks -- what! -- how could several dozens of men defeat an army!? » JiaGai -- It never states how many were pursuing Cao Cao. -- All it states is Xu Rong and his men were there. Hypothetically, let's take it this way. Cao Cao's reinforcements numbered in the several dozens, which was a good size for a small, fast unit meant to rescue Cao Cao. Xu Rong likely had a similiar number of men under his command for the sake of speed. All in all, it was likely an even fight, with MAYBE a slight numerical advantage for Xu Rong. » darkknight -- and xu rong never had a chance against the xiahou's
59 "Hurt not my lord!" cried Xiahou Dun to Xu Rong, who at once rushed at him.
60 But the combat was short. Xu Rong speedily fell under a spear thrust of Xiahou Dun, and his troops were driven off. Before long Cao Cao's other generals arrived. Sadness and joy mingled in the greetings. They gathered together the few hundreds of soldiers left and then returned to Luoyang.
61 When the confederate lords entered Luoyang, Sun Jian, after extinguishing the fires, camped within the walls, his own tent being set up near the Dynastic Temple. His people cleared away the debris and closed the rifted tombs. The gates were barred. On the site of the Dynastic Temple he put up a mat shed containing three apartments, and here he begged the lords to meet and replace the sacred tablets, with solemn sacrifices and prayers.
62 This ceremony over, the others left and Sun Jian returned to his camp. That night the stars and moon vied with each other in brightness. As Sun Jian sat in the open air looking up at the heavens, he noticed a mist spreading over the stars of the Constellation Draco.
63 "The Emperor's star is dulled," said Sun Jian with a sigh. "No wonder a rebellious minister disturbs the state, the people sit in dust and ashes, and the capital is a waste."	» Seraph -- The destruction of his world -- Sun Jian is witnessing the destruciton of an entity he has known throughout his life. The Han has most likely been a fixture in his reality, like the sky. This would be on the level of seeing New York or Washington, D.C. leveled and burned, and the Unites States crumbling to the ground. Think about that before mocking his emotions.
64 And his tears began to fall.	» MaChaChao -- haha -- All of these guys are going to get dehydrated from all this crying. Whoever said that women cry more than men hasn't touched this book! » drunkmastrZhangFei -- boohoo -- Another crying scene. » Shokyo -- Live with it, there are about a million of them » Solens -- Crying -- This crying is acually to exaggerate their emotions and make it seem like a once in a lifetime. The fact is that men almost never cried in ancient China. The strange thing is that by making it seem different, they are making it all seem the same. Anyway, remember it is the ROMANCE of the Three Kingdoms. » iluvNDfootball -- Again! -- Every time this happens, we argue! Can we just accept that they cry, and MOVE ON. Thanks Solens and Shokyo, I'd hate to do this every time there's a crying scene. » WenChoung -- Not Literal -- I highly doubt Luo Guanzhong knew whether or not these guys were actually crying or not. I also doubt SHZ says anything about it either. If anything, these lines saying these guys cried is just to emphasize that they were indeed loyal and compassionate about their land and people. » ZhaoZilongfan -- Also -- Their crying shows a deep emotion, signaling that this emotion is true and not a deception. » Solace -- Ask a WWII vet sometime to tell you about the horrors of war -- About how he watched his best friend cry for his mother with his dying breath. Does our reaction in a time of despair define our character? To shed a tear for the atrocity of human nature, is perhaps the one thing that keeps us human. » StallionFury -- wow, solace, that was a very well put statement. » Shokyo -- I agree -- But World War 1, in my opinion, was a lot worse than World War 2. Sorry, just a useless piece of information... » WUuuu -- Off topic disagreement -- WWI was a worse war than WWII, but WWII had more atrocities (mass destruction i.e. Dresden, Hiroshima and the Concentration camps). Also, for American's WWII was a bigger experience because we were involved in that war for much longer and sufferred far more. So really its a matter of what you consider worse, and worse for who. » MrLuBu -- America didnt suffer! -- America lost about 100,000 men while Germany lost around 2,000,000. And wasnt it America that dropped the A-bomb onto Hiroshima? Japan lost a whole city of innocent people. BTW, I'm definitely not pro-German, they just lost the most people in the war, Hitler was a disgusting bastard. » WUuuu -- I didn't say that No one else sufferred -- But the individual American troops sufferred greatly as well in WWII. They were in the war in horrible conditions for quite a long time. » Super Dian Wei -- Um....MrLuBu? -- Japan dropped a surprise attack, and fucked up a bunch of our people. WE GAVE THEM A HEADS UP that if they didn't surrender, an A-Bomb was gonna get dropped down their ass. They didn't surrender, and of course, got an A-Bomb shoved up their ass. They attacked us, and expected us to just sit on our asses. It was their own fault. » Solace -- As for which country lost the most soldiers in WWII -- I do believe that would have been the Russians. » Yunsung -- True, Solace. -- The Russians lost more people at Stalingrad than the Japanese did in the entire war. I think the numbers were 17 Russians for every Japanese soldier lost. The Russians didn't have enough guns for everyone, so they would give them to every other soldier. When he died, another man would pick up his gun. The Russian officers would machinegun their own troops if they retreated. 1/4 of the Russians were killed by their own officers. The Japanese were given multiple warnings about the war. The final one was on August 4, 1945, two days before the A-bomb was dropped. The Japanese said that they would consider it, but it was translated as a refusal. The wording was somewhat ambiguous, and the bomb was dropped. » DongDal -- One other thing, Pearl Harbour was a military target; Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civillian. » Mattamatics -- I must disagree with you there. -- Every city in a warring country is a military target. It's called shock value. The germans did it a thousand times over when they invaded France. Besides, we gave them the proverbial shot across the bow. » Seraph -- WW2 was worse than WW1 -- Depending on where you look. The trenches of 1 were horrific, but the jungle warfare of the Pacific 2 theater was beyond hellish. Also, the civil atrocities of WW2 are on a far greater level than any other comparable instance in history, from Russia to the Pacific Islands, death and chaos was everywhere. » DongDal -- That's no excuse -- Just because the Nazis did it, doesn't mean that the Americans could. Besides if you take the point of view of the Japanese goverment back then, would you have believed the Americans when they said they had a weapon that could wipe out an entire city? If they had surrended and it had turned out to be a bluff, they would have lost a lot of face. » Seraph -- The A-Bomb was pretty much icing on the cake of defeat -- The allies were going to win, period. The only question was how fast and at what cost. Many speculate that the A-Bomb may have saved millions of lives because is prevented the necessity of a full on invasion while bringing the war to a swift end that would make Japan a complete democracy instead of half Russian (the Russians were sweeping into Manchuria). This would prove to be huge in the cold war. In any case, and back finally on topic, tears in the western perspective seem to be so different from tears in the eastern perspective. In the west it is a sign of sadness/ weakness/ feminism(?), while in the east it is used to show great emotion. Having them cry is meant to show a great emotional range. » HeroOfChaos -- Yeah, it's just to let us see that they really care about the land and the people... -- They could have just said "and Sun Jian was really sad" but it sounds corny... » TomMurch -- As a history student, I'll just say the following quickly: -- WW1 was the worst war ever, as it could have easily been avoided, the conditions for the soldiers were terrible and it solved nothing (except making Germany angry and giving Hitler the ambition to go into politics). WW2 had far more casualties (esp. civilian), but it did destroy three dictatorships in Italy, Germany and Japan. The A-bombs were horrific, but were the only way to defeat Japan quickly and without Allied casualties (the Japanese still would have fought on, even though their situation was hopeless, as they were brought up to believe that they were naturally superior to the decadent westerners). And there is nothing wrong with shedding a few tears, esp. in an eastern society 1800 years ago (give Seraph a gold star for actually remembering what the question was!) » Seraph -- Well..... -- That is very debatable. WW1 was certainyl avoidable, but there are several instances where WW2 could have been nipped in the bud, as is the case with all wars. I still give the edge to WW2 for a variety of reasons (not the least of which is a personal bias because of familial connections). We've all heard of the trenches and their horrors, but the scale of civil destruction was unprecedented in WW2. Genocide, fire bombs, complete destruction of Russia (by retreating Russians, no less), and the island warfare... I won't disgust you with the details, but the island hopping campaign was perhaps the most inhumane, brutal campaigns undertaken in the modern era of warfare. To give you some perspective, of an island with tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers in a garrison, four or five survived. The amount of hatred and racism was absolutely shocking on both sides. That is without even examaning the horrors of the Holocaust, the Russian invasion of Germany, the German invasion of Poland and France, the terror from the battle of Britain... nothing can compare to World War 2. It even lasted longer (1914-1918 vs 1939-1945). Ahem. Back to the point: the Eastern mentality on shedding tears seems to be much more humane than the western mentality. There is nothing wrong with feeling deep sorrow in the face of atrocities, and it is inhumane not to express it. I would rather have weeping soldiers than heartless murderers.
65 Then a soldier pointing to the south said, "There is a beam of colored light rising from a well!"	» guanping -- can someone explain this? » Shokyo -- Well, evidently, a beam of coloured light is rising from a well -- Just an omen of some sort, but I'm not sure what it means. On the day Cao Pi was born, a "purple halo" hung over his home for a day. » LuBoyan -- Signs -- Are all over this book. Sometimes they have a direct effect on the novel (Zhao Zilong at Long-Slope) but often times they are used to give the reader or the characters a foreshadowing of future events.
66 Sun Jian bade his people light torches and descend into the well. Soon they brought up the corpse of a woman, not in the least decayed although it had been there many days. She was dressed in Palace clothing and from her neck hung an embroidered bag. Opening this a red box was found, with a golden lock, and when the box was opened, they saw a jade seal, square in shape, four inches each way. On it were delicately engraved five dragons intertwined. One corner had been broken off and repaired with gold. There were eight characters in the seal style of engraving which interpreted read:	» LuBusSword -- strange woman -- who was this woman? the dead empress, perhaps? » LiaoHua -- Empress -- It's possible I mean she was thrown out the window. » Seraph -- But the odds of her landing in the well on her way down? -- I would think this was a servant charged with protecting the seal more than the empress, but who knows. » HeroOfChaos -- I highly doubt the empress carried the imperial seal with her when she was thrown out the window... » Tiamatty -- The Seal -- My guess is it was some maiden charged with protecting the Seal, who got murdered and thrown down a well. It explains why they couldn't find the Seal earlier. Some dead chick had it.
67 I have received the command from Heaven: May my time be always long and prosperous.
68 Sun Jian showed this to his adviser, General Cheng Pu, who at once recognized it as the Imperial Hereditary Seal of the Emperor.	» darkknight -- cheng pu -- He's not an advisor » Super Dian Wei -- I think Cheng Pu is Sun Jian's wingman, and he ADVISES him on certain things. » Shokyo -- Cheng Pu's an awesome general! -- I forget why... » WenChoung -- He's not stupid... -- I'm sure it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it was the Imperial Seal anyways, does it? » Shokyo -- How many people had seen the real Imperial Seal besides the Emperor and Sun Jian? -- I'm just making a guess but I think the most anyone would've seen of the Imperial seal is a picture. » Albedo -- Who has seen the actual Declaration if Independence? -- Sure, it's on display now, but before it was, people still had a general idea of what it looked like. » Shokyo -- I know -- But it's like seeing some famous person. Like, say you're an Orlando Bloom fan, everyone knows what he looks like but if you saw then you'd still be like "Oh my god."
69 Cheng Pu said, "This seal has a history. In olden days Bian He saw a phoenix sitting on a certain stone at the foot of the Jing Mountains. He offered the stone at court. The King of Chu split open the stone and found a piece of jade. In the twenty-sixth year of Qin Dynasty (BC 221), a jade cutter made a seal from it, and Li Si, the First Emperor's Prime Minister, engraved the characters. Two years later, while the First Emperor was sailing in Dongting Lake, a terrific storm arrived. The Emperor threw the seal to the water as a propitiatory offering, and the storm immediately ceased. Ten years later again, when the First Emperor was making a progress and had reached Huaying, an old man by the road side handed a seal to one of the attendants saying, 'This is now restored to the ancestral dragon!' and had then disappeared. Thus the jewel returned to Qin.	» Explainer -- Bian He -- Bian He of the state of Chu (circa BC 800) found a jadestone in Jing Mountains and presented it to two Chu kings, but he was sentenced to amputation of both feet because the stone was thought as fake. When a new king took the throne, Bian He tried once more, and this time the stone was recognized as the purest kind of jade. » Explainer -- Li Si -- Li Si (BC 280-208) was the statesman who was responsible for most of the radical political and cutural innovations made in Qin after BC 221.
70 "The next year the First Emperor died. Later Zi Ying, the last Emperor of Qin and grandson of the First Emperor, presented the seal to Liu Bang the Supreme Ancestor, the founder of Han Dynasty. Two hundred years later, in Wang Mang's rebellion, the Emperor's mother, Lady Yuan, struck two of the rebels, Wang Xun and Su Xian, with the seal and broke off a corner, which was repaired with gold. Liu Xiu the Latter Han Founder got possession of it at Yiyang, and it has been regularly bequeathed hereafter.
71 "I heard this treasured seal had been lost during the trouble in the Palace when the Ten Regular Attendants hurried off the Emperor. It was missed on His Majesty's return. Now my lord has it and certainly will come to the imperial dignity. But you must not remain here in the north. Quickly go home to the south of the Great River, where you can lay plans for the accomplishment of the great design."	» Explainer -- The Great River -- The Yangtze or Yangzi river, which flows from west to east to the Pacific at Shanghai. » Reboot -- A Sign -- :) now, what better sign to declare your sovereignty than this? lol.
72 "Your words exactly accord with my thoughts," said Sun Jian. "Tomorrow I will make an excuse that I am unwell and get away."	» _Sam B. -- Excuse? -- Was it really legitament that you could make an excuse and get away with it? » SkyAnimal -- "This doctor's note excuses me from campaigning." » Yorak -- military rule -- Keep in mind that these were all private armies and volunteer forces. This wasn't the Han Imperial Army, this was a bunch of nobles, governors, and talented individuals who all raised their own army to come help. Each leader is there because they want to be. Sun Jian is well within his rights to take his army and go home if he wants.
73 The soldiers were told to keep the discovery a secret. But one among them was a compatriot of the elected chief of the confederacy---Yuan Shao. He thought this might be of great advantage to him, so he stole away out of the camp and betrayed his master. He went to Yuan Shao's camp, informed the secret, and received a liberal reward. Yuan Shao kept the informant in his own camp.	» MaChaChao -- Yuan Shao -- How come Yuan Shao and his men are always causing trouble? Someone put a sword through his head please!!! » JiaGai -- Sun Jian and the Imperial Seal -- The imperial seal is an invaluable artifact and the rightful property of the emperor alone. For Sun Jian to have it, plan to keep it, and keep that fact secret from everyone else is an act of treason against the empire. I have a feeling that ANYone who had found the seal would have wanted to keep it, however. » Super Dian Wei -- This IS Sun Jian... -- he strikes me as a greedy, war-loving guy, and when you have a greedy war-loving guy, you usually get theft followed by lots of bloodshed(just like what happens in any decent action movie). Personally, I think Sun Jian was walking down the "evil" road. » JiaGai -- Ambition -- I don't think it's so much evil as ambition. Sun Jian was smart and ambitious enough to realize just what he's come across and what it could mean for him. With the Later Han dynasty crumbling, I'm sure he figured that it didn't matter if he took it. It would have made his bid for the throne that much easier in the long run. The seal would have lent legitimacy to his claims (he could claim it was the will of heaven). Of course, until he established a power base, this was meaningless, which is why he had to keep it secret until then. » Super Dian Wei -- That is the EXACT point I was trying to make. -- Cao Cao was not evil, he just had more ambition than the average pansy can handle. Sun Jian was heading in that direction. I am saying that if Sun Jian kept heading down that path, he and Cao Cao would clash. » JiaGai -- Cao Cao and Sun Jian -- Sun Jian definitely had the military talent as well as the ambition and balls to search out his own destiny. One big difference between the two is that Sun Jian was far too willing to be on the frontlines and charged in blindly more often than he should have. This made him an excellent battlefield commander and greatly inspired his troops but it also made him incredibly vulnerable. Cao Cao on the other hand, preferred to remain in a position where he could lead yet remain relatively safe. He was able to command respect without charging into the fray like Sun Jian. He also had an incredible eye for talent and gathered around him some of the finest officers of the day. These were traits that Sun Jian lacked and why it was far more unlikely for him to become another Cao Cao. As a side note, this entire string of side notes is so out of order, nobody could possibly follow them. » Solace -- Sun Jian was perfectly justified in keeping the Heriditary Seal -- Who was he to give it to? The emperor was in the clutches of his enemy. The family that was leading the confederacy had proven to be selfish and cowardly. Giving the seal away at this point would be an even more traitorous act than keeping it. » Pluvius -- Another explanation -- Though the pro-Han bias obviously applies to Wei, it can also apply to Wu. Even if Sun Jian kept the Seal for perfectly honorable reasons, this book would portray him as traitorous due to the mere suggestion that he would wish to supplant the reigning dynasty. » DongDal -- Since Sun Jian made the oath about wanting to restore the Han along with the other lords... -- he had no right to keep the Seal a secret. » Seraph -- But the lords had no more right to the seal than he did -- He may not have had the right to the seal, but Solace is correct: the lords had no more authority for it than he did. If anything, Sun would have been distrustful of the Yuan family. » HeroOfChaos -- Can you blame him? -- Would you trust the family of someone who has just denied you the food you needed to keep your troops in order, and by doing this made you suffer a devastating defeat? I would not. » jolteony -- lol -- I believe the only possible solution would be to give it to anyone of imperial blood for safe keeping, like Liu Bei (possibly not) or Liu Yu which by my opinion would be the most adequate course » guanping -- Iffy that -- There was doubt about Lui Bei's lineage at the time and Liu Yu was hardly a big figure. Yuan Shao as leader of the forces or Jian as the guy found it is the logical choice » Tiamatty -- Divine Providence -- Uh, we do all remember the light coming out of the well, right? That sorta suggests someone wanted Sun Jian to find the Seal. Because the Emperor was semi-divine, and the Seal was the sign of the Emperor, that sorta suggests a divine source for the light. In other words, Sun Jian took it as a sign that the heavens wanted him to have the Seal and to work to restore glory to China. Had the heavens wanted Liu Bei to recieve the Seal, he would've been the one who saw the light. If Yuan Shao was supposed to have it, Yuan Shao would've seen the light. Sun Jian saw the light, so he was supposed to have it.
74 Next morning Sun Jian came to take leave, saying, "I am rather unwell and wish to return to Changsha."
75 Yuan Shao laughed, saying, "I know what you are suffering from: It is called the Imperial Hereditary Seal!"	» darkknight -- Yuan Shao should be a doctor. » LiaoHua -- Doctor Yuan Shao -- And my remedy is hand over the Imperial Heredity Seal. » Seraph -- He sure is a clever one
76 This was a shock to Sun Jian, and he paled but said, "Whence these words?"
77 Yuan Shao said, "The armies were raised for the good of the state and to relieve it from oppression. The seal is state property; and since you have got hold of it, you should publicly hand it over to me as chief. When Dong Zhuo has been slain, it must go back to the government. What do you mean by concealing it and going away?"	» atomicwillie -- yuan shao -- yuan shao is such a greedy asshole: "common sun jian, please gimme the seal, i wanna be emperor waaaaa" » Reboot -- Yuan Shao -- I doubt Yuan Shao's trying to keep the seal for himself... he probably means what he says here. Could be that he wanted it for himself, though. I just thought it doesn't fit his character. » iamnick -- Yuan Shao -- He does strike me to be a good man at heart. He seems to want to help restore the han, and he was one of those to stand up to Dong Zhuo in the begining. » Tiamatty -- Ambition -- Certainly, Yuan Shao wanted to restore the Han. He was very loyal to the Emperor. He Jin also wanted to restore the Han, and was loyal to the Emperor. Dong Zhuo also wanted to restore the Han, and was loyal to the Han. For Sun Jian to hand over the Seal would have been a pretty dumb thing to do. Yuan Shao's phrasing wasn't exactly reassuring: "You should publicly hand it over to me as chief." Why would it need to be publicly handed over to him? And what would he do with it before they got back the Emperor? And what guarantee was there he wouldn't exploit the Emperor as everyone else had? The only one Sun Jian could trust was himself. » chrisdalby -- Excuse me but HELLO? -- Strikes me that neither Yuan Shao nor Sun Jian are in the right here. Both of them want to reach the Imperial Throne and both know that the Seal will help them in this end. As such, Sun Jian has the bargaining chip while Yuan Shao is reduced to whining about being the leader. The only way Yuan Shao could get the Seal in all fairness is to either drag Sun Jian in front of the council. This reminds me of the Agamemnon-Briseis-Achilles feud in the Iliad.
78 "How could the seal get into my hands?" said Sun Jian.
79 "Where is the article out of the well near the Hall of Paragons?"	» Lestat -- Hall of Paragons? -- Hrm... what's that? The Dynastic Temple? » Brave Wei Xiahou Dun -- a hall in the palace
80 "I have it not: Why harass me thus?"
81 "Quickly produce it, or it will be the worst for you!"
82 Sun Jian pointing toward the heavens as an oath said, "If I have this jewel and am hiding it myself, may my end be unhappy and my death violent!"	» GrimmZoen -- Be careful what you wish for -- Gee Sun Jian, keep talking like that! » atomicwillie -- ... and then liu biao was born... » iamnick -- oops -- ok, so maybe he isn't such a good guy... smart, but not good. Darn it, i was really liking him up till now. » MasterLiang -- Bad boy Sun jian. -- No good comes from deceit... » Zhou Yu of Wu -- Sun Tzu would certainly disagree with you that no good comes from deceit. -- In fact, he says that the only way to win a war is through being one step ahead of your enemy. And one way to do it is by lying or telling the truth based on the circumstance.
83 The lords all said, "After an oath like this, we think he cannot have it."	» robert -- hehe -- actually... that was pretty smart of him. These guys were so superstitious .
84 Then Yuan Shao called out his informant.
85 "When you pulled that thing out of the well, was this man there?" asked he of Sun Jian.
86 Sun Jian's anger burst forth, and he sprang forward to kill the man.	» Reboot -- Sun Jian -- Er... killing that soldier - that doesn't really help his case at all, does it? » capgun -- Sun Jian's only human -- he attacked out of impetuousness
87 Yuan Shao also drew his sword, saying, "You touch that soldier and it is an insult to me!"
88 Behind Sun Jian, Generals Cheng Pu, Huang Gai, and Han Dang stepped forth; behind Yuan Shao, Generals Yan Liang and Wen Chou were ready to act. In a moment on all sides swords flew from their scabbards. But the confusion was stayed by the efforts of the others, and Sun Jian left the assembly. Soon he broke up his camp and marched to his own place.	» darkknight -- wen chou and yan liang were not there earlier. (they just arrived...) » Reboot -- Wen Chou's and Yan Liang's appearance -- With respect to Yuan Shao complaining that these two generals were not with him earlier in this campaign; its likely that the two were bringing up the rear guard of Yuan Shao's army train. » chrisdalby -- Erm actually -- The absence of Wen Chou and Yan Liang was noticed when Hua Xiong was slaughtering half the generals of the coalition. Knowing that they might be tapped, they probably thought :'Let's make ourselves scarce', snuck out the back exit, played a bit of mah-jongg, did their concubines every which way, got drunk and finally collapsed in a heap of heathen depravity... Now, they're up, they've had their Frosties, meanie general dude is deaded by Guan Yu, hangovers are gone thanks to Zhang Fei's special raw egg mix (you know that man has a cure for hangovers) and now they have to face this little git Yuan Shao.
89 Yuan Shao was not satisfied. He wrote to Jingzhou Region and sent the letter by a trusty hand to tell Imperial Protector Liu Biao to stop Sun Jian and take away the seal.	» LiaoHua -- Coward -- Ahh.... am i wrong or is Yuan Shao being cowardly for not doing that himself and having Liu Biao handle the dirty work? » guanping -- LiaoHua -- He couldn't pursue him without looking greedy and others would leave. The way Sun Jian was going was away from Shao's territory so Shao can't get him that way either... » heffalump -- Plus, he has to lead the alliance against Dong Zhuo. -- Restoring the government should probably come first. » TomMurch -- At least somebody had a sense of proportion here. -- I would congratulate Yuan Shao for his determination to end Dong Zhuo, but he's still being a bit excessive. Still, the Seal obviously had a powerful hold over them all.
90 Just after this came the news of the defeat and misfortune of Cao Cao, and when he was coming home, Yuan Shao sent out to welcome him and conduct him into camp. They also prepared a feast to console him.
91 During the feast Cao Cao said sadly, "My object was for the public good, and all you gentlemen nobly supported me. My plan was to get Yuan Shao with his Henei troops to approach Mengching; and my force at Qiao to keep Chenggao; while the others of you to hold Suanzao, to close the passes of Huanyuan and Daigu, and to take possession of the granaries, to control the points of vantage, and thus to secure the Capital District. I planned for Yuan Shu with his Nanyang army to occupy the counties of Danshi and Xilin and go into Wu Pass to help the three support areas. All were to fortify their positions and not to fight. Advantage lay in a diverse military coalition that could show the empire a possibility of dealing with the rebellion. We could have convinced the people to side with us against Dong Zhuo. Victory would have been ours at once. But then came delays and doubts and inaction, and the confidence of the people was lost, and I am ashamed."	» SleepingDragon -- ...well?? -- Sure, we could laugh at Mr. Cao Cao when he was running like a coward, but we cant give him his props when he actually admits his wrongs? Cao Cao was truly a great man, and running the risk of sounding biased, he was more loveable than the great Liu Bei. » JiaGai -- I think not -- If you read it carefully, he's actually admonishing everyone else for being too pansy to join in on the struggle. He's naming Yuan Shu for instance and laying out his entire plan, which nobody else was interested in following. And because he was forced to go alone, was it any wonder he lost? The next paragraph no one says a thing. Why do you think that is? » SleepingDragon -- oh dear -- You're quite right... I submit to you... » Reboot -- Fox -- Cao Cao just blamed almost everyone (rightly so) for his defeat... but SUCH a nice way of putting it! :) » soonGon -- i think he is ashamed cause he couldnt bring everyone together to follow the plan
92 No reply was possible and the guests dispersed. Cao Cao saw that the others mistrusted him, and in his heart knew that nothing could be accomplished. So he led off his force to Yanzhou Region.	» Explainer -- Yanzhou -- Liu Dai was the Imperial Protector of Yanzhou at that time. » iamnick -- just wondering but why did they not trust cao cao at this point? -- they still don't know about the slaughter of his own family (or do they?), so what else has he done to earn their mistrust? or maybe they are just to worried about themselves that they don't trust anybody around them? » DongDal -- I think it is because Cao Cao is still young and has no major position in the goverment... -- unlike the rest of the lords.
93 Then Gongsun Zan said to Liu Bei, "This Yuan Shao is an incapable, and things will turns chaotic. We had better go too."	» JiaGai -- First example of Yuan Shao's inability to make decisive leadership decisions. -- Instead of pressing a retreating Dong Zhuo, he is content to sit on his ass. » SkyAnimal -- Historical similarities -- In the U.S. Civil War, the North had a huge army, but was incapable of using it due to the weakness of the commanding general. They were a bit content to sit on their butts on strong ground and let the enemy come to them. » Seraph -- Good point Skyanimal -- and when Lincoln's critics demanded he remove General U.S. Grant, he said: I cannot spare this man; he fights. No particular reason for saying that, just thought it was cool.
94 So he broke camp and went north. At Pingyuan he left Liu Bei in command and went to strengthen his own position and refresh his troops.
95 The Imperial Protector of Yanzhou, Liu Dai, wished to borrow grain of the Governor of Dongjun, Qiao Mao. Being denied, Liu Dai attacked the camp, killed Qiao Mao and took over all his army. Yuan Shao seeing the confederacy breaking up also marched away and went east.	» SkyAnimal -- What the ??? -- Okay, this is a perspective jump in the story. Narration changes and the story loses it's focus to something else. This can indicate that there was an original, and everything prior to Cao Cao's return was added, since he is mentioned returning and breaking camp. » TomMurch -- It does seem like a bit of a leap, but all the allied armies had split up. -- The story simply jumps to the next relevant event. » chrisdalby -- Believe me, this actually does make sense. -- As a writer, I recognise what is being done. It's a technique called a parallel narrative which is used to show an apparently unrelated event happening besides the main narrative in order to explain the furthering of the principal narrative structure. Here, Liu Dai's murder of Qiao Mao is used to further the breaking-up of the forces and to make Yuan Shao leave.
96 On the way home, Sun Jian was passing through Jingzhou Region. The Imperial Protector of Jingzhou, Liu Biao, was a scion of the imperial house and a native of Shanyang. As a young man he had made friends with many famous people, and he and his companions were called the Eight Wise Ones. The other seven were:
97 .1. Chen Xiang from Runan .2. Fan Pang from Runan .3. Kong Yu from Luting .4. Fan Kang from Bohai .5. Tan Fu from Shanyang .6. Zhang Jian from Shanyang .7. Cen Zhi from Nanyang
98 Liu Biao was friends with all these. He had three famous persons who helped him in the government of his region. They were Kuai Liang and Kuai Yue from Yanping, and Cai Mao from Xiangyang.
99 When Yuan Shao's letter detailing the fault of Sun Jian arrived, Liu Biao ordered Kuai Yue and Cai Mao with ten thousand soldiers to bar the way. When Sun Jian drew near, the force was arranged in fighting order and the leaders were in the front.
100 "Why are you thus barring the road with armed troops?" asked Sun Jian.
101 "Why do you, a servant of Han, secrete the Emperor's special seal? Leave it with me at once and you go free," said Kuai Yue.
102 Sun Jian angrily ordered out General Huang Gai. On the other side Cai Mao rode forth with his sword set to strike. But after a few bouts Huang Gai dealt Cai Mao a blow with the iron whip on the armor just over the heart. Cai Mao turned his steed and fled, and Sun Jian got through with a sudden rush.	» Yorak -- Huang Gai's weapon -- I believe I read somewhere that Huang Gai's "iron whip" was actually more like a club or mace (like what he uses in the Dynasy Warrior games). However, there is a Chinese weapon called the iron whip, which is basically a weighted chain with blades attached. Does anyone know which of these Huang Gai's "iron whip" was? » Drunken Master -- iron whip -- There's actually a kung fu weapon available on the internet called a hard whip. It's basicly a ribbed steel rod. Huang Gai's weapon is a rod, but they call it a whip in the book. At first I thought it was a sectioned chain whip, but then I was corrected and told it was a hard whip. » TomMurch -- See Chapter 5, paragraph 57 for more on the iron whip.
103 However, there arose the sound of gongs and drums on the hills behind, and there was Liu Biao in person with a large army.
104 Sun Jian rode straight up to him and bowing low spoke, "Why did you, on the faith of a letter from Yuan Shao, try to coerce the chief of a neighboring region?"
105 "You have concealed the state jewel, and I want you to restore it," was Liu Biao's reply.
106 "If I have this thing, may I die a violent death!"	» _Wu Han Tian -- foreshadowing -- Okay, Sun Jian, once was enough...^^* » MaChaChao -- Sun Jian -- Be Careful what you wish for! » LiaoHua -- Geez, be careful or the heavens may take it seriously.....
107 "If you want me to believe you, let me search your baggage."	» kekvitirae -- Baggage Check -- This is the origin of airline security right here.
108 "What force have you that you dare come to flout me thus?"	» robert -- translation -- Sun Jian was really saying, "You and what army?" » DongDal -- L.B: The one behind me idiot.
109 And only Liu Biao's prompt retirement prevented a battle. Sun Jian proceeded on his way. But from the rear of the second hill an ambush suddenly discovered itself, and Kuai Yue and Cai Mao were still pursuing. Sun Jian seemed entirely hemmed in.	» MinionStarwind -- Running away -- this wont end well....
110 What does a man to hold the state jewel for, If its possession lead to strife?
111 How Sun Jian got clear of the difficulty will presently be told.	» capgun -- i just noticed something -- all of the chapters end in _______'s fate will be told in further/next chapters. Why????????? » DustAndShadow -- Cliff hangers -- They keep you in suspense. Luo Guanzhong wrote this from an oral tradition, so it is likely that the story was told little by little each day, and the cliffhanger made people more interested in the story. » TingFeng -- And they lived happily ever after. -- I think it's one of the Chinese rhetoric, like the Western "happily ever after phrase." I saw one in Jin Yong's first introduction to Yang Guo in the first Eagle Shooting Hero thing... » capgun -- you are all right -- i never noticed it, but those are all true » Seraph -- Well, think about it. -- This is a world with no TV, radio, very few printed books (and even fewer literate men)... the main way to have fun after dark would be to tell stories. The probably dragged them out over several nights, so this is the equivalent of saying "stay tuned for the conclusion!"

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