««« Chapter 5 »»» Cao Cao Appeals To The Powerful Lords; The Three Brothers Fight Against Lu Bu.

Web   ThreeKingdoms

1 At the close of the last chapter, Chen Gong was about to slay Cao Cao. But Chen Gong reflected, "I joined him to do righteous things. Now if I killed him, I would only do unrighteousness, and the people would condemn me. I rather leave in silence."	» SkyAnimal -- The Chinese -- Something I notice about the aristocracy of China in several movies is that they all behave... like they're nuts. "Emperor and the Assasin" and other films made in China, about China, all seem to reflect that those in charge are borderline nutcases. » Explainer -- You are so right. To stand out they have to be extreme. -- Philosophers such as Confucius, Mencius, and Li Si, had laid down the political foundation a long time ago (400 to 600 years before Three Kingdoms period). Since the foundation extolls the virtue of power monopoly, those who rise to the top must have wrested that monopoly from a brutal struggle. Hence, under a calm sea are many undercurrents. Moreover, the foundation provides no exit strategy, those on top must use nut, nut tactics to keep their power or else they would suffer the same fate like their fallen enemy. As Dr. Rafe de Crespigny says, the readers love the stories of Three Kingdoms because during this era the undercurrents suddenly burst onto the surface - a scene not seen in the last 400 years of Han Dynasty. Leaders rise up all over the regions, exerting their own powers. The foundation shattered, the "nutcases" become heroes, for their fighting is no longer about dog-eat-dog. Their fighting now has ideals in it. Hence the saying, "In peace you are an able subject; in chaos you are a crafty hero." An "able subject" means a "nutcase" in your observation. We understand why Cao Cao rejoices when he hears this saying. He does not want to be a cut-throat politician; he wants to be a hero. He used to be so disgusted with the political climate that he built a rural hut for himself and spent time hunting and studying instead of holding office. » Solace -- Let's not forget -- that these movies were made in a communist country, where the people are pre-disposed to think the idea of imperial rulership is a crazy thing. If the empire is crazy, so too must be the emperor. » JiaGai -- China has been communist all of what, sixty years now? -- This novel was written hundreds of years before communism was a spark of a concept in the minds of men not yet born. Communist biases don't really apply. » Solace -- I should think -- that those biases would effect modern made movies though, which was SkyAnimal's original observation. » DragonAtma -- Well... If you ask me, the communists are the nutcases! *hides* » Laguna Cottage -- Tiananmen 1989 -- Those who supported student masscre like Li Peng and Jiang Zemin rose to the top. Zhao Ziyang who opposed the masscre approach is still under house arrest today. (He is now 80 years old or something?) » TheYellowDwarf -- Re: Nutcase Rulers -- If the rulers and aristocracy were sane and benevolent, how are we supposed to look at our "righteous" rebellious heroes? Since one of the most enduring "tale" in the Chinese culture is of the warrior-figure who fights against the "corrupt government officials and malicious local elites" (and thus the popularity of Guan Yu), it's no wonder that in many Chinese films that are introduced in the West we have "nutcase rulers".
2 Rising from his bed before the sunrise, Chen Gong mounted his horse and rode away eastward to his home county of Dongjun.	» lunar anubis -- Stupid Person -- What was Chen Gong thinking when he ran away? Cao Cao was only doing what seemed logical at the time; I think Chen Gong should have realized this. » _Shige -- Decision -- Look at it this way - if you were travelling with a man who had a bounty on his head who had just slaughtered his father's sworn brother & his family (albeit under rather confused circumstances), i think you'd do a runner too, lest you end up being associated with a known murderer. » _anonymous -- Re: lunar anubis -- Or better yet, what if you were a part of the world that would let Cao Cao down? If he could kill his uncle so easily, he'd certainly have no second thoughts about killing you. » Koren -- I think I would have run away from a man who killed his uncle so easily. -- I mean come on if you kill your relatives so easily, how fast could you kill someone who wasn't related to you at all? » Reboot -- Chen Gong -- is either too righteous to stab someone in the back when he's asleep, or he's just too cowardly to admit it (which is fine, considering he's no military man). In any case, his outlook is obviously too different from Cao Cao, so the decision to leave is prudent, considering he couldn't/wouldn't kill Cao Cao.
3 Cao Cao awoke with the day and missed his companion. Thought he, "Chen Gong thinks me brutal because of a couple of egoistic phrases I used, and so he has gone. I ought to push on too and not linger here."	» dgr81 -- poetic flaw -- i think this passage is significant for the fact that cao confesses (to himself, this means he isnt putting on a show for anybody) that his previous statement abt 'letting down the world' was exaggerated and 'egoistic'. he has a tendency/flaw to launch into vain, poetic speech, no? » HeroOfChaos -- I don't think so -- I think he was just saying that Chen Gong overreacted. » WUuuu -- i agree with both of you -- I think he is showing that he knows his former statement was 'egoistic' while stating that Chen Gong overreacted to this.
4 So Cao Cao traveled as quickly as possible toward Qiao. When he saw his father, he related what had happened and said he wanted to dispose of all the family property and enlist soldiers with the money.	» SkyAnimal -- His father??? -- Wasn't Cao Cao adopted by an eunuch? » iluvNDfootball -- That was... -- Cao Cao is by blood a Xiahou. When Cao Teng became a eunuch, he adopted a Xiahou to further the Cao clan. His father was adopted by Cao Teng. » Explainer -- This fine example illustrates the power of the eunuchs. -- Because of their close relationship with the emperors, empresses, and the court, the eunuchs are very powerful in Chinese history. They are not mere servants in domestic duty like keeping the palace clean and in order. Instead, they raise child heirs, help pick ladies of the court, and actively promote court officials. The eunuchs are not as incapable and as this book describes. They are not a bunch of mean, wild, beardless, "nutless" men, but they are astute politicians and good family raisers. Of course, when we talk about eunuchs, we implicitly include the female servants, some of whom are just as powerful. If we need an example of a successful eunuch, it is Cao Jie. » HeroOfChaos -- Well... I think there were good and bad eunuchs... -- but then the eunuchs started getting too much political power and became heavily corrupted. It's as they say: Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. » chrisdalby -- Well actually -- What is said is true except for one thing. The eunuchs may be astute politicians and good family raisers but the Ten Attendants are also ALL mean, wild, beardless AND ESPECIALLY nutless.
5 "Our possessions are but small," said his father, "and not enough to do anything with. However, there is a graduate here, one Wei Hong, careless of wealth but careful of virtue, whose family is very rich. With his help we might hope for success."	» darkknight -- POOR!!! -- i thought Cao Cao's dad was a court official. » Laguna Cottage -- Unless he were a top ruler like Dong Zhuo, who controls the state coffer... -- Or unless he were a governor or warlord of a territory, where he could mobilize the local resources. Most officials, corrupt as they are, are not super rich personally. If they are, it's more likely they inherit vast lands or business. The super rich guys in this book are the landlords and business people. They can feed armies. » SkyAnimal -- Landlords -- Example, Zhang Fei. » Solace -- I thought Zhang Fei was a poor butcher? » darkknight -- zhang fei -- he was a butcher, wine seller and a farmer. » chrisdalby -- Let's be honest though -- How much of that meat and wine would Fei actually sell???? He'd stuff it all down his fat throat.
6 A feast was prepared, and Wei Hong was invited.
7 Cao Cao made him a speech: "The Hans have lost their lordship, and Dong Zhuo is really a tyrant. He flouts his prince and is cruel to the people, who gnash their teeth with rage. I would restore the Hans, but my means are insufficient. Sir, I appeal to your loyalty and public spirit."	» lunar anubis -- The People -- I have never once heard this book mention that the people hated Dong Zhuo. I've only heard officers say that, so it may not be true. I'm skeptical. » _Deruki -- it is not exactly a great stretch that the people didn't like Dong Zhuo... -- take a closer look at his actions, he has been slaughtering village folks and carrying away their women... » Shokyo -- horny git. -- I don't like him, and I don't think most people here do. But can you look at his actions and justify them? » Koren -- The people definitely hate him. -- I mean you like someone who kills people and rapes women? » Yorak -- the people's voice -- When do you -ever- hear what The People have to say in this novel? Their plight is always told by generals, scholars, or officers of the court. » Shokyo -- Why go for a weed when you can have a rose? » WUuuu -- The street children speak for the people! » guanping -- People don't matter -- If a lord wanted say a wife his advisors would say the people wanted him to marry her. Basically they justified what they wanted by saying the people want it. Although in this case they probably did. » Reboot -- the people -- Perhaps Wei Hong, being a virtuous person (i.e. implication of Confucian upbringing) will be moved by Cao Cao's speech about "the people" (the best reflection for a ruler's lack of virtue, of course, is the suffering for his people). Cao Cao probably isn't the type to intimately care about what commoners think.
8 Wei Hong replied, "I have long desired this but, so far, have not found a person fit to undertake the task. Since you, Cao Cao, have so noble a desire, I willingly devote all my property to the cause."	» _Cao Cao -- I always wondered what happened to the rich and nice guys like him. -- There were two merchants who helped Liu Bei in chapter 1, remember? And there is this Wei Hong guy. » SkyAnimal -- Talk about easy with his money.
9 This was joyful news, and the call to arms was forthwith prepared and sent far and near. So they established a corps of volunteers and set up a large white recruiting banner with the words Loyalty and Honor inscribed thereon. The response was rapid, and volunteers came in like rain drops in number.	» LiaoHua -- Risky Move -- Hold on there is a bounty on his head and he's sending out recruitements, so couldn't one of the people who came to recruit just kill him and get the reward?!? » Laguna Cottage -- Dong Zhuo only controls the capital... -- Cao Cao is a regional warlord now. If Dong wants to get him, Dong must send his own army down. The locals support Cao. » chrisdalby -- There's your answer -- Proof that Dong Zhuo is hated. At the prospect of removing him from power, people flock to Cao Cao's banner. This could also be because of the good name of the Xiahou family but even so, most of them would come to kill Don Zhuo. » guanping -- Or it could be the guarenteed food and pay
10 One day came a certain Yue Jing from Yangping and another Li Dian from Julu. These two were appointed to Cao Cao's personal staff. Another was one Xiahou Dun from Qiao. He was descended from Xiahou Ying of old. Xiahou Dun had been trained from his early boyhood to use the spear and the club. When only fourteen he had been attached to a certain master-in-arms. One day one person spoke disrespectfully of his master, and Xiahou Dun killed that person. For this deed, however, he had to flee and had been an exile for some time. Now he came to offer his services, accompanied by his cousin Xiahou Yuan. Each brought a thousand trained soldiers. Really these two were brothers of Cao Cao by birth, since Cao Cao's father was originally of the Xiahou family, and had only been adopted into the Cao family.	» Explainer -- Xiahou Ying -- Xiahou Ying (?-173) an important general of Liu Bang. Ennobled as the Marquis of Ruyin and commonly called the Lord of Tang. » _Sam B. -- Xiahou -- I thought Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan were brothers, not cousins. Either I'm judging the last name or I'm being stupid. » _mujdamasta -- post -- why is it that in Dynasty warriors 3, xiahou dun has a scimitar , but here it says he is 'trained in the use of spear and club'? maybe they thought too many characters had spears, and not enough swords » _anonymous -- post -- Reply to mujdamasta. In chinese jian could mean spear or sword. Dao means blade and is mostly used for sword or scimitar. Mao is probably more accurate for spear. So I think that it might be because of a translation error or misunderstanding. Either the transtor is wrong for writing spear and club when it should be sword and club or Koei is wrong for making Xiahu Dun with a sword when it should have been a spear and club. » dgr81 -- reply -- 'jian' most definitely means sword. 'qiang' is most likely spear while 'mao' is lance. dynasty warriors did not have accurate personal weapons. xiahou dun is most often described fighting with a spear. » _Wu Han Tian -- Koei and personal -- Yes, PLEASE don't take Koei's personal weapon ideas in the Dynasty Warriors series literally. Koei really only does that to make more variety in the fighting styles. I mean seriously, do you really think Sun Ce, a great commander, is going to use tonfas to beat his opponent's to death, when he could do a much easier job of it with a sword? Or the perfect example, you really think that boomerang that Zhu Rong carries is really going to be used on a battle field? My point is, try not to think so much about what you're already familiar with from the Koei games, because they're all interpretations to make money and please their fans, they don't necessarily HAVE to be accurate so long as they please the audience. » lunar anubis -- Brothers-Cousins -- I too thought Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan were cousins. Could someone please explain this? » _anonymous -- post -- From what I gather, Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan and Cao Cao are all half-brothers, having the same father, but different mothers. » SkyAnimal -- Meaning of the word "cousin" -- In some senses, "cousin" means a "kinsman," somebody who is related by blood and family background. Think clans, in how everyone can lay claim to a certain historical figure as the sire of that group. » _me -- Dun -- Xiahou Dun is my all time favorite character in this story, and the games. he is so awesome. I understand why Koei changed his weapon because I couldn't see some one as Bad A as Dun fighting with a spear or club. I mean, come on! » _anonymous -- post -- Yet they have Zhao Yun using a spear, and even a novice can really mop the floors with him. It's not what the weapon is, it's how well you use it. » _Deruki -- Rereading the posts from previous chapters. -- ok I've been reading pretty far ahead of here and I have to ask this of all the new readers and posters. Please for the love of god stop asking why the weapons are different from the story to the game, Koei changed the weapons because every character using spears wouldn't be an exciting game. Keep this in mind and please keep the redundancy of posts like this down. (you'll see what I mean as you read on) » Solace -- Isn't it interesting -- how both Xiahou Dun and Guan Yu were in exile because they had committed murder? No wonder those two couldn't get along, they were too muck alike methinks.
11 A few days later came Cao Cao's two cousins, Cao Ren and Cao Hong, each with one thousand followers. These two were accomplished horsemen and trained in the use of arms.	» deadboy -- Man the Cao family really sticks together. » robert -- Yep. -- The Cao family really does stick together... save for the whole slaying of sworn brothers part.... and the indiscriminate killing of their family members due to misunderstandings they don't bother to investigate before making rash decisions. Aside from all that, the Cao family is a real happy Brady Bunch! » Banedon -- the Cao family is probably more of a military bunch than most families in that time... -- something like my Great-grandfather is a general... my grandfather is a Magistrate, my father is a Supreme commander and i am a Colonel or something =P » DSPaul -- yeah, but... -- ...that wasn't neccessarily abnormal for a noble family at the time. » CaoCaoForever -- Let's study realistic cause and effect... -- . C:Cao Cao slays family. E:Family loves Cao Cao Do you see a problem here? » Koren -- What about C: Family doesn't know he killed a family » Solace -- It's not at all unlikely for anyone in a leadership position -- to appoint family members to prominent roles. After all, the leader wants to have people he knows he can trust in charge of his army. It was of some good fortune that Cao Cao had four competent cousins. » Alagithil -- Look directly at the Sun. -- Also, look at the Sun family. Sun Ce, Sun Jian, Sun wots-his-face, etc. They kept giving ranks to their Suns. I mean, sons. » BraveZuMao -- Solace has it nailed in that these leaders needed trust over everything else. -- Cao Cao trusts his family to serve him well as do the members of the Sun family. Yuan Shao and Liu Yan take the trust over the ability in their own forces. The leaders of the time had to be surrounded by people who were too loyal or too scared to ever betray them.
12 Then drill began, and Wei Hong spent his treasure freely in buying clothing, armor, flags, and banners. From all sides poured in gifts of grain.	» SkyAnimal -- War chest -- It is one thing to post a banner and say, "Join me in fighting the tyranny." But people won't do it unless they get paid (example, American Revolution). You can pay their salary, but then have to pay for weapons and armor and the like. It becomes one big economic enterprise to raise an army. And since the aristocracy were usually educated in the disciplines of war and math, they were the most able in handling these affairs.
13 When Yuan Shao received Cao Cao's call to arms, he collected all those under his command to the number of thirty thousand. Then he marched from Bohai to Qiao to take the oath to Cao Cao. Next a manifesto was issued:	» SkyAnimal -- Troops -- Cao Cao must have had a significant number of troops by this time for a guy with 30,000 soldiers to feel he could pledge allegiance to him, subordinating himself to Cao Cao. Something is missing in the story. How can a guy who was supposed to originally assasinate Dong Zhuo, fled through the countryside with the death mark on his head, and even has some misadventures along the way, all of a sudden end up with some army numbering in the tens of thousands? Cao Cao does not come across as a Robin Hood. But maybe he is George Washington in his charisma. » Ezeran -- Friends -- I'm sure I've read somewhere that Cao Cao and Yuan Shao where good friends. Am I right can someone correct me? Because if this is right then thats another reason that he may have joined him. » Super Dian Wei -- They were good friends... -- But seeing what point in the book this is at, let me say only, that certain circumstances bring about different situations. » Solace -- I don't suppose that once someone had the means to raise an army -- that he'd find the manpower lacking. Many strong young men would eagerly join up. The guarnantee of three square meals a day, a warm place to sleep and money in your pocket; what's to complain about? Okay, you would have to do some hard drilling each day, but it sure beats farming, where you work from daylight till dark, with never a guarnatee that the crops will grow. In short, the soldier's life was great, except when you actually go to war of course. But then, if that turns out bad, you can always run away. » JiaGai -- There was little doubt they'd be going to war, however. -- Unless they were country yokels far removed from areas of conflict and heard NO news whatsoever of those areas, these people were well aware of the chaotic era China was descending into. Likewise, men don't start raising armies for the sake of having armies, they raise armies to go off and do battle. If these men were voluteers I'm sure they were well aware they were going off to fight. If they were conscripted, they were probably praying they'd survive. Either way, the fact that many of them were about to die had to be a detriment to recruitment. That Cao Cao was able to raise so many men speaks of his talent to forge an army.
14 "Cao Cao and his associates, moved by a sense of duty, now make this proclamation. Dong Zhuo defies Heaven and Earth. He is destroying the state and injuring his prince. He pollutes the Palace and oppresses the people. He is vicious and cruel. His crimes are heaped up. Now we have received a secret command to call up soldiers, and we are pledged to cleanse the empire and destroy the evil-doers. We will raise a volunteer army and exert all our efforts to maintain the dynasty and succor the people. Respond to this, O Nobles, by mustering your soldiers."
15 Many from every side answered the summons as the following list shows:	» _Praetorianstalker -- post -- Or maybe he wasn't on the list because he started the whole thing...
16 1. Governor of Nanyang---Yuan Shu 2. Imperial Protector of Jizhou Region---Han Fu 3. Imperial Protector of Yuzhou Region---Kong Zhou 4. Imperial Protector of Yanzhou Region---Liu Dai 5. Governor of Henei---Wang Kuang 6. Governor of Chenliu---Zhang Miao 7. Governor of Dongjun---Qiao Mao 8. Governor of Shanyang---Yuan Yi 9. Lord of Jibei---Bao Xin 10. Governor of Beihai---Kong Rong 11. Governor of Guangling ---Zhang Chao 12. Imperial Protector of Xuzhou Region---Tao Qian 13. Governor of Xiliang---Ma Teng 14. Governor of Beiping---Gongsun Zan 15. Governor of Shangdang---Zhang Yang 16. Governor of Changsha---Sun Jian 17. Governor of Bohai---Yuan Shao	» _Sam B. -- ????? -- Where's Liu Bei's name? » RepublicanGuard -- Liu Bei wasn't important enough to be called upon. -- His post was low on the ladder and he probably didn't have enough troops to make a difference. The only reason he made it into the battle was Gongsun Zhan's invite. » Michael M. Pettit -- Where's Liu Bei? -- Liu Bei possessed no governorship or and high military or civilian rank to my knowledge. At this point, he is merely a magistrate, and his brothers generals, likely as personal escort. Also, as the previous has pointed out, at this time, Liu Bei had no army, only guards that served as personal escort. » _Cao Cao -- Have you noticed? There's no Cao Cao, either. » Explainer -- Maybe Cao Cao had no title of lordship then. » _anonymous -- post -- Well, actually it was Cao Cao's summon so he could not have sent a summon out to himself and then answer it and post it on his own summon unless he was really demented. Also, Liu Bei was under GongsunZhan's command right? So it was actually him following Gongsun Zhan to battle. » Khaid -- There's no need to mention Cao Cao, he assembles this gathering, so he's already there. » _Deruki -- Read further down, Liu Bei hadn't joined yet. » ScottieTheNerd -- Cao Cao -- True, Cao Cao sent out the summons -_- » XiaoQaio -- Hah Hah -- Yuan Shao's name is at the bottom!! » Shokyo -- I'll tell him you said that :p -- But all but one are governors, the same rank, so it doesn't really affect it. » Alagithil -- Zhang -- There are so many Zhangs in this story! Zhang Fei! Zhang Liao! Zhang Chao! Zhang Jiao! And that isn't all! How powerful is the clan of Zhang? And they aren't all Governors, (with one lord) there are Imperial Protectors too! » ZhaoZilongfan -- Thats odd -- I could have sworn Yuan Yi was under Yuan Shu... ohwell, I guess I was wrong. I wonder if Yuan Yi join Shu later. » jolteony -- I don't blame you for not knowing... -- The three you mentioned plus some more famous ones (Zhang He, Zhang Hong, Zhang Ren...) all come from diferent clans. By this time there was at least 10.000 diferent Zhang clans. » jolteony -- Well Liu Bei could have been here, he was prefect or governor of Pingyuan. -- The problem was, he wasn't very famous, hadn't got famous officers, and ruled a mediocre city. And he didn't had any noble decsendancy or title that anyone knew at this time. He was just a governor among millions of them. So he wouldn't probably be there, was it not for Gongsun Zan. » StongRyne -- Liu Bei was magistrate -- magistrate was his rank, it's pretty much "mayor" of a small area. Perfects didn't control anything because of the collaspe of the Han. Imperial Protector was kinda like royal adminsitrator of a region. Then governors were like govenors we have today.
17 These contingents varied in size, from ten thousand to thirty thousand, but each was complete in itself with its officers, civil and military, and battle-leaders. They were heading for Capital Luoyang.
18 The Governor of Beiping, Gongsun Zan, while on his way with his force of fifteen thousand, passed through the county of Pingyuan. There he saw among the mulberry trees a yellow flag under which marched a small company. When they drew nearer, he saw the leader was Liu Bei.	» _Morter -- Tada! -- And here's Liu Bei » SkyAnimal -- Addition of Liu Bei -- Side story, added after the initial tale. You can tell by the way it makes a sudden tangent about him.
19 "Good brother, what do you here?" asked Gongsun Zan.
20 "You were kind to me once, and on your recommendation I was made the magistrate of this county. I heard you were passing through and came to salute you. May I pray you, my elder brother, enter into the city and rest your steed?"
21 "Who are these two?" said Gongsun Zan, pointing to Liu Bei's brothers.	» brentbradly -- Liu Bei AKA Snoop Dogg -- If you ever listen to Snoop Dogg (the rapper) in the later years, everyone he raps with, snoop calls them his cousin or brother. Hearing all these brothers of Liu Bei, I think Snoop Dogg would fit right in. Okay, it is a weird idea, but I thought I would say it. » Solace -- Snoop Dog is the modern day Liu Bei? -- Wow! And to think, I have none of his albums! » Super Dian Wei -- The only difference is that if Tao Qian offered Snoop that phat territory... -- Snoop would have taken it and then sold it to Cao Cao for drug money.
22 "These are Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, my sworn brothers."
23 "Were they fighting with you against the Yellow Scarves?" asked Gongsun Zan.
24 "All my success was due to their efforts," said Liu Bei.	» guanping -- thats true » Pang Tong -- No its not -- Liu Bei pulled off several strategical feats; he is just being modest » HeroOfChaos -- Well, none of his strategies would have worked if his brothers wouldnt have been there. » yuanthedestroyer -- eh, he's still being modest. -- Sure they helped, but it's not like he's worthless... here... ;) » guanping -- I know he deserves credit for what he did -- Still without commanders of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei's ability, he couldn't have done so well with such a small army, as capable as Liu Bei is in his own right.
25 "And what offices do they fill?"	» guanping -- Nice to see you... what offices do you have -- offices seemed to be really important way to greet someone » Laguna Cottage -- It is like to ask "What do you do?" -- Actually, today offices are still most important. We introduce guests by their names and what they do... » Alagithil -- Respect -- Also, he probably wanted to afford them the proper respect, that due to their title. He didn't want to offend them. Especially if all Liu Bei's sucess was "due to their efforts."
26 "Guan Yu is a mounted archer; Zhang Fei is a foot archer."	» Shokyo -- I don't know how anyone can peform mounted archery. -- I can't aim a bow and arrow with both feet planted firmly on the ground and the target perfectly still. » JiaGai -- Mounted archers -- The Mongols were infamous for this ability and used it very, very effectively. Samurai were also trained to fire a bow from horseback. » Super Dian Wei -- Shokyo, that's what separates the great men from the not so great m....girls. » darkknight -- archer brother's -- what about the serpent halberd and green/black/blue saber » JiaGai -- the brothers -- Guan Yu and Zhang Fei still use their trademark weapons. They are simply designated archers, much like any other military unit is designated (infantry, cavalry, archers, etc.). » SkyAnimal -- Archers -- For such "powerful" men, why are they given what is usually viewed as a "weak weapon?" (I don't expect an answer on this, btw.) Since Liu Bei has so few troops, and since he would likely expect to face small bands and hold a defensive, archers would be practical. Even if a large campaign were to erupt, Liu Bei's troop would not be decimated in a battle. Let the larger forces of troops (30,000 soldiers) have regular infantry. » Rahonavis -- Shokyo's mounted archers -- Something of interest to u Shokyo. It is in fact one of the finer arts in most Middle eastern and Asian countries. Japan still practice the art till this day, they hold yearly tournaments in mounted archery. The Chinese especially in the northern tribes are superbe archers on horseback. They were once hunters, but in times of war these hunters evolved into mounted archers. The Huns were one of the finest examples. To be able to draw a bow and shoot at a target while the horse is in full gallop is indeed a feat, and the people of the plains were truly masters of this art » DongDal -- Also, bows and arrows were the Ancient world's artillery. » TaDun -- Bows and arrows were very effective at this point in history. -- The amount of bowmen an army had could drastically alter the outcome of a battle. DongDal is right; they were the ancient world's artillery.
27 "Thus are able people buried!" said Gongsun Zan, sighing. Then he continued. "All the highest in the land are now going to destroy the rebellious Dong Zhuo. My brother, you would do better to abandon this petty place and join us in restoring the House of Han. Why not?"	» Pang Tong -- Aint it the truth? -- Able people are buried. I wonder how many others that could have been great were buried.
28 "I should like to go," said Liu Bei.
29 "If you had let me kill him that other time, you would not have this trouble today," said Zhang Fei to Liu Bei and Guan Yu.	» _Morter -- Zhang Fei's translation -- Told ya so! Told ya so! NYAH NYAH! » Solace -- Liu Bei should learn to listen to Zhang Fei -- This isn't the last time that he's right on the topic of wanton murder. » Koren -- Note to self: let Zhang Fei kill people from now on » JiaGai -- Yes, let Zhang Fei go off whenever he wants and slaughter anyone who slights him. -- By the way, just so nobody misinterprets (cause people apparently have, before), that was sarcasm. Zhang Fei isn't always right and he often beats on people who don't deserve it. » HeroOfChaos -- Just think Zhang Fei would have killed Dong Zhuo that other time... -- he would have been considered a murderer, since Dong Zhuo at that time didnt do anything bad to the people. Then he would have put himself and his brothers into some deep shit.
30 "Since things are so, let us pack and go," said Guan Yu.	» darkknight -- "Since things are so, let us pack and go." -- If Guan Yu fails in becoming a general, he should become a poet... » Lord_Alden -- Hrm... -- Poetry is a form of expression, its just if you can express your point well AND rhyme, then you're good.
31 So without more ado, the three brothers, with a few horsemen, joined Gongsun Zan and marched with him to join the great army.
32 One after another the feudal lords came up and encamped. Their camps extended over seventy miles and more. When all had arrived, Cao Cao, as the head, prepared sacrificial bullocks and horses and called all the lords to a great assembly to decide upon their plan of attack.	» _fengxiao -- and here is CaoCao » Rahonavis -- 70 miles of encampment -- Not even the Romans in their hey day could they ever produce an army so large as to take up 70 miles of land. That is like having soldiers camped from Los Angeles all the way to San Bernadino county. » nlink -- Huge Armies -- I recently read a webpage that mentioned that Ancient Chinese armies oftentimes dwarfed those of Europe. According to the site, "[China] had built the Great Wall and was maintaining a huge standing army along her frontier centuries before the first Roman legionary was seen on the Danube." It's not that unlikely, seeing as how China was a large country with a large population that was often united under one leader (besides during this time of course) while Europe post-Rome never even had unified nations until the time of absolute monarchs well after the 1000s. » Laguna Cottage -- The encampment may include the support areas as well. -- When a huge army move, they procure many products and services. Transportation is not fast back then, and therefore the local people end up to get all the bussiness (or get robbed in many cases). » dgr81 -- huge armies -- china before it was united (ie during the warring states period) was split into several states and each maintained an army. i would imagine that the ruler of a unified china would command a combined force many times over the army of other countries. » HeroOfChaos -- Those armies are huge. -- It's like if they had an unlimited supply of soldiers, we will see several armies of over a million soldiers in this book.
33 Then spoke the Governor of Henei, Wang Kuang, "We have been moved by a noble sense of right to assemble here. Now must we first choose a chief and bind ourselves to obedience."
34 Then said Cao Cao, "For four generations the highest offices of state have been filled by members of the Yuan family, and their clients and supporters are everywhere. As a descendant of ancient ministers of Han, Yuan Shao is a suitable man to be our chief lord."	» _tsao tsao -- Why didn't Cao Cao want to be the leader? » _Toastah -- Reply -- I guess because if the assault screwed up, his record would still be clean. » _Praetorian Stalker -- comment -- One thing that can be difficult to remember, because in the USA we have little of it, is the filial piety (respect for the stations of self and others) expected of the Han. If Cao Cao would have tried to usurp leadership of the other lords they would have looked down on him. Cao Cao only helped himself and his aims by nominating the most obvious person on hand. » Explainer -- Politics -- A party is strong only when it is anchored by respectable people. And it can only rise when it has fiercely loyal followers. Yuan Shao is a respectable figure among officialdom. Even Dong Zhuo dared not kill him in that garden gathering. Cao Cao fled in his failed plot, but Yuan Shao just walked out of the gathering, hanged his seal at the city gate, and left, then Dong Zhuo offered him a governorship. Cao Cao is very loyal to the cause. He has proposed to kill Dong Zhuo, then actually carried out the task, and now raising a rebellion. He and other leaders sincerely wish this enterprise a success, and so they move quickly to elect and serve Yuan Shao. » dgr81 -- i think its because cao knew that the position of leader was a difficult one to handle. -- he probably viewed the position as one of a figurehead only. » Brother Dun -- He chose to give Yuan Shao leadership for a few reasons. -- One, being that he is not ranked as high as Yuan Shao, two, his family did not have as rich a history as the Yuan family, remember, that Cao Teng was an Eunuch, and that painted a black mark onto the name of Cao, three, Cao Cao picked Yuan Shao as leader because he was the first man to answer his call to arms, and the first to stand against Dong Zhuo and probably had the largest army of all the assembled generals and leaders. » _Wu Han Tian -- one last reason -- Might want to take note that Dong Zhuo still wants his head too. I'm sure that makes his leadership a little less appealing. » Speaker -- The reason -- The main reason he let Yuan Shao lead the officers is because of Yuan Shao's reputation. The Yuan family had held high positions during the reign of the Han and thus Yuan Shao was a reknown man. Cao Cao, being of low rank, would not have the authority to hold the governors together. However, Yuan Shao held a high rank and the others would willingly listen to him. By doing this he was greatly helping the alliance. » Lord_Alden -- Whoa, Praetorian! -- How about you use something other than 'filial' because that means having to do with the family, buddy. » YoungZhugeLiang -- ??? -- What Cao Cao just know that he couldn't be it!! Plain and Simple!!!! » Jiankang -- Why Cao Cao offered the leadership role away to Yuan Shao -- Good question. Let me try to get into Cao Cao's mind. 1) No one suggested Cao Cao be the head. 2) And to name yourself would be very silly. a) It would be an affront to those with more power and b) it would not be regarded as "humble", a key Chinese "virtue". 3) Yuan Shao, as many have already stated, is by far the more powerful man of the hour. 4) Lastly, since you (Cao Cao that is) know that the first three points basically excludes him from the running, the only thing left to do is to actually NOMINATE Yuan Shao himself. This way, at least he: a) shows he's humble, and b) earns the goodwill of Yuan Shao. Given the above, what else could Cao Cao do? -Jian Kang » LordSunQuan -- yeah your right -- there was nothing left he could do » Alagithil -- Another reason -- He didn't want to be the next He Jin. » MaTseng -- the thing is -- cao cao didn't want to hold power because yuan shao was the strongest lord of the time besides dong zhou, he had the backing of many officials because the yuan family was a long respected name and many imperialists would back that name, the cao family isn't so respected and cao cao doesn't even have land he's borrowing it all. » guanping -- also Cao Cao had served Dong Zhou for about a year -- so his loyalty could be called into question. » VGuyver -- Several Reasons Cao Cao did not lead. -- 1. Cao Cao family name wasn't as higly respected as Yuans. 2. Yuan Shao was a close friend and ally for a good period of time, well until they became rivals. 3. Cao Cao forged the imperial decree to destroy Dong Zhou, The emperor never made one. If it were discovered that the papers were false, the alliance and his life would be at risk if he were the leader. 4. Cao Cao had no intention of rebelling against the Han's nor did he wish to control china, he started off pretty noble and at this point he is still very loyal to han, but that changes later as he gains more power and even more so after he gains the emperor in his custody. 5. Cao Cao had much less influence towards other respected Leaders in china, Yuan Shao though would instantly get support and help due to reputation and family name. 6. Cao Cao also could not of kept an alliance together, it would of fallen fast or not even of formed because to most of the China's leading figures, he was a no name. And they'd have even less respect if they learned he wasn't a actual descendent of the Cao family. So naturaly points 1 and 5 come into play here. 7. Cao Cao's already pissed off Dong Zhou, can you imagine what would happen if he were found to be the leader? Dong Zhou and Lu Bu would make it a priority to kill him. As long as Yuan Shao is the leader, he's only be a secondary or third target next to Yuan Shao and Sun Jian thus avoiding the likeliness that Dong Zhou would aim to kill him, and at the same time, the alliance would probably still be strong under Yuan Shao instead. 8. Should Yuan Shao be killed, Cao Cao, could nominate himself or another as leader and somehoe maintain the alliace, but Yuan Shu's betrayal to Sun Jian sort of broke the alliance before it needed to be salvaged. » guanping -- few things -- 3: yeah like they cared if fake or not. 8: Yuan Shu's not sending supplies was the second time this happend to him(some local lord first time) but reltionships where healed. Sun Jian and Yuan Shu where still respectful of each other and Jian a loyal vassal of Yuan Shu. It was more argument over seal and personal greed then anything. I heard a story that Sun Jian was actully the one that gave Yuan Shu the Imperial Seal » DongDal -- Some may have cared if it was fake. » guanping -- name one? -- Yuan Shu wouldn't, Sun Jian would have told Yuan Shu first, Yuan Shao wouldn't(I suspect he knew) Gongus Zan wouldn't and considering the need, I doubt Liu would. Decree or no, they wanted Dong Zhou to lose » DongDal -- Don't know much about a few of them... -- So I can't really comment. But some may have cared about the Han. » MaTseng -- Ma Teng, Wang Kang, Han Fu, Liu Dai, Bao Xin and Kong Zhou would have -- they were all government appointed lords and we're strictly loyal to the han. » guanping -- Ma Teng was dealing with barbarins I belive and he actully rebelled against the Han earlier -- Wang Kang is true enough. Han Fu? I'm not to sure what he wanted... Liu Dai actully killed another lord didn't he for greed? Bao Xin was later ally to Cao Cao but yep your right and Kong Zhou...he not to sure on. However none questioned the decree » Hoblik -- Novel Vs History -- Within the novel, Teng never rebelled against the Han (in fact, he put down a rebellion of the Qiang) In history, Teng, Sui and a bunch of Qiang rebelled (and Dong Zhuo was one of their opponents) From what I've gleaned, the Han couldn't win that fight, and so only 'won' by abandoning the Liang province. » MaTseng -- um.. listen -- even in the novel Ma Teng wasn't part of sui's rebellions he wasn't even introduced intill after that. you only assume that because he's oath brothers with sui and controls the provinces he did. Because they assume it's what the emperor wanted only the bold forged the emperors name and with past dong zhou being an ass to everyone, everyone would have wanted it anywya » guanping -- even in the novel? -- Just querying the wording » Hoblik -- Er, yea, I said Ma Teng didn't rebel in the novel -- which is, I think, what guanping is pointing out.
35 Yuan Shao again and again declined this honor. But they all said, "It must be he! There is no other!"
36 And then he agreed.	» Thwart -- Yuan Shao said: "If I say yes, they should shut up."
37 So the next day a three-story altar was built, and they planted about it the banners of all parties in five directions of space. And they set up white yaks' tails and golden axes and emblems of military authority and the seals of leadership round about.
38 All being ready, the chief lord was invited to ascend the altar. Clad in ceremonial robes and girded with a sword, Yuan Shao reverently ascended. There he burned incense, made obeisance and recited the oath:
39 "The House of Han has fallen upon evil days, the bands of imperial authority are loosened. The rebel minister, Dong Zhuo, takes advantage of the discord to work evil, and calamity falls upon honorable families. Cruelty overwhelms simple folks. We, Yuan Shao and his confederates, fearing for the safety of the imperial prerogatives, have assembled military forces to rescue the state. We now pledge ourselves to exert our whole strength and act in concord to the utmost limit of our powers. There must be no disconcerted or selfish action. Should any depart from this pledge, may he lose his life and leave no posterity. Almighty Heaven and Universal Earth and the enlightened spirits of our forebears, be ye our witnesses!"	» Solace -- "There must be no disconcerted or selfish action." -- They should have remembered this part of the oath.
40 The reading finished, Yuan Shao smeared the blood of the sacrifice upon his lips and upon the lips of those who shared the pledge. All were deeply affected by the ceremony and many shed tears.	» _DW maniac -- tears -- is it just me or do these guys cry a bit too much? » lord_alden -- Hmm. -- You must understand. When multiple people share a common goal whole-heartedly, emotion does tend to push and shove. Remember 9-11. Tears were shed, and in many different reasons. » _anonymous -- maybe they cried all the time, so when they got their limbs cut off in battle the didnt cry... » gillyruless -- Keep in mind that men crying, weeping, sobbing wasn't a shameful thing. -- Think of it as a strong diplay of emotion and nothing more. Applying today's standard to judge these characters' behaviors, such as crying, usually wouldn't result in an accurate assessment. » chrisdalby -- You don't get it... -- When it is written that they were all deeply affected by the ceremony, it was because that they had just rubbed fresh animal blood on themselves. The tears were real tears of sadness at being forced to do this. Yuan Shao isn't thinking: 'SLAY DONG ZHUO!' he is thinking 'ANYONE GOT SOME MOUTHWASH?'
41 This done, the chief lord was supported down from the high place and led to his tent, where he took the highest place and the others arranged themselves according to rank and age. Here wine was served.	» _Zach H. -- Wine..... -- They drink way to much wine. » MaChaChao -- What?! -- Too much wine? You can never have too much of a good thing. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Bah! -- No such thing as TOO much wine » darkknight -- drunkmastrZhangFei -- you truly are Zhang Fei » guansghost -- Eh, -- Give me brandy any day
42 Presently Cao Cao said, "It behooves us all to obey the chief we have this day set up, and support the state. There must be no feeling of rivalry or superiority based upon numbers."
43 Yuan Shao replied, "Unworthy as I am, yet as elected chief I must impartially reward merit and punish offenses. Let each see to it that he obeys the national laws and the army precepts. These must not be broken."
44 "Only thy commands are to be obeyed!" cried all.
45 Then Yuan Shao said, "My brother, Yuan Shu, is appointed Chief of the Commissariat. He must see to it that the whole camp is well supplied. But the need of the moment is a van leader who shall go to River Si Pass and provoke a battle. The other forces must take up strategic positions in support."	» _flapjacks -- why? -- Why would Yuan Shao select his brother as the one to supply the camps? Why wouldnt he choose someone else so Yuan Shu can help out with the fighting and strategy. » ElDughez -- post -- Food and supplies does play a major role in morale of your overall troops (would you want to fight if you were not being fed?), so I believe Yuan Shao choose his brother due to he "trusts" that Yuan Shu will supply the camps. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Hmm -- That could be it, or maybe he didn't want his baby brother getting hurt? » ScottieTheNerd -- Yuan Family -- I believe it's more of the natural tendency to elect people you know most to the more important positions. Being family, it would be natural for Yuan Shao to place Yuan Shu in charge of logistics. At least Yuan Shao would be getting something out of it. » guansghost -- Yuans -- Giving friends powerful positions is still done today. Caugh Chretien Caugh
46 Then the Governor of Changsha, Sun Jian, offered himself for this service.
47 "You are valiant and fierce, and equal to this service!" said Yuan Shao.
48 The force under Sun Jian set out and presently came to River Si Pass. The guard there sent a swift rider to the capital to announce to the Prime Minister the urgency of the situation.
49 Ever since Dong Zhuo had secured his position, he had given himself up to luxury without stint. When the urgent news reached Adviser Li Ru, he at once went to his master, who much alarmed called a great council.
50 Lu Bu stood forth and said, "Do not fear, my father. I look upon all the lords beyond the Pass as so much stubble. And with the warriors of our fierce army, I will put everyone of them to death and hang their heads at the gates of the capital!"	» SkyAnimal -- Lu Bu -- Damn, he's got some character. » Drackor -- I think you're right, Lu Bu does have character... -- however, not the kind worthy of positive mention. Thus far he has shown us the complete opposite in fact. His skill breeds ego, his ego breeds arrogance, his arrogance breeds selfishness, his selfishness breeds greed and his greed breeds stupidity. Amongst those listed, only his skill is worth praise. » cFodder -- Another Lu Bu detractor *shakes head* Once more into the fray! -- Everyone else in this novel of mention battles more with their minds and mental prowess - that is where the true outcome of everything of importance in this novel is based. Who's smarter, who's trickier, who's most ruthless? Lu Bu turns all that on its head. He stands up to the most brilliant strategists, the greatest leaders, the most powerful warlords of the era with really little other than his own personal skill as a warrior - that's all he's got. He wasn't out to destroy the Han really, or make the people suffer, or betray people or cause any of the problems many of the other rulers ended up making - he was just there trying to carve a name for himself in this whole mess that had cropped up. So while Lu Bu doesn't have any traits save his skill that are worthy of praise, that in and of itself makes Lu Bu worthy of praise in my opinion. He had one thing he was good at and he ran with it, made the most out of that one thing, even though it was all he was good at. He was the underdog - yet because of his skill many people overlook this. And that's really what I like about Lu Bu. He was the one man that challenged an empire, took on all comers, one man that tested his skill against all the armies and geniuses of China... » XiangHu -- I agree with cFodder. -- That's some deep stuff, cFodder. Yeah, at least he's out there in the midst of this entire war busting his butt and others to make a name for himself somewhere. He may not have been the smartest, but he has two things that's backing him up: He dares be in war and he's an excellent fighter.
51 "With your aid I can sleep secure!" said Dong Zhuo.
52 But someone behind Lu Bu broke in upon his speech, saying, "An ox-cleaver to kill a chicken! There is no need for the General to go: I will cut off their heads as easily as I would take a thing out of my pocket!"	» darkknight -- remarks -- I love these remarky metaphor things they're so catchy. I'd like to watch the Chinese version of catch-phrase. » atomicwillie -- wtf -- im sorry but An ox-cleaver to kill a chicken and I will cut off their heads as easily as I would take a thing out of my pocket! are two completely different things. maybe if he said "An ox-cleaver to kill a chicken? ha There is no need for the General to go. i will cut off their heads as easely as i would the chicken" it would sound better » JiaGai -- The translation is a little awkward, but it gets the point across. -- Frankly, it sounds better than using a chicken analogy twice in a row. » WUuuu -- It's mixing metaphors -- Which is supposedly bad form... though for whatever reason I think this passage generally gets its point across quite well. » dgr81 -- it sounds like 2 different things... -- because he IS talking abt 2 diff things: 1. there is no need for the General to go 2. I can kill them easily there ya go; 2 different things.
53 Dong Zhuo looked up and his eyes rested on a stalwart man of fierce mien, lithe and supple as a beast. He had round head like a leopard and shoulders like an ape's. His name was Hua Xiong of Guanxi. Dong Zhuo rejoiced at Hua Xiong's bold words and at once appointed him Commander of the Valiant Cavalry and gave him fifty thousand of horse and foot. Hua Xiong and three other generals---Li Su, Hu Zhen, and Zhao Cen---hastily moved toward River Si Pass.	» _Toastah -- climb the ranks -- Man, it was easy to get promoted back then. Just say something poetic to the effect of "I'll kill your enemies" and bam you've got your own army. » _Fierce Dragon Slaye -- ya -- ya i wish the militairy today was like that » _Sephiroth -- LOL!!!! -- Toastah, LOL!!!!! » dgr81 -- post -- i dont think it was as easy as that. you needed to have the courage to say it, because it was usually death for the person who could not perform something he said. in this case, dong zhuo only needed someone to do the job and it was necessary to give him an official rank so that he could be given command of soldiers. note, it was just as easy to lose your commission (not to say your life) as it was to gain one. » _TheNovak -- Yeah, but it's funnier if you don't think of that :-) » LiaoHua -- Ranks -- I guess they didn't have tenure back then
54 Among the feudal lords, Bao Xin, the Lord of Jibei, was jealous lest the chosen Van Leader Sun Jian should win too great honors. Wherefore Bao Xin endeavored to meet the foe first, and so he secretly dispatched his brother, Bao Zhong, with three thousand by a bye road. As soon as this small force reached the Pass, they offered battle.	» guanping -- They could at least wait before breaking the oath.....
55 Fast reacting, Hua Xiong at the head of five hundred armored horsemen swept down from the Pass, crying, "Flee not, rebel!"
56 But Bao Zhong was afraid and turned back. Hua Xiong came on, his arm rose, the sword fell, and Bao Zhong was cut down from his horse. Most of Bao Zhong's company were captured. Bao Zhong's head was sent to the Prime Minister's palace. Hua Xiong was promoted to Commander-in-Chief.	» Ericyojimbo222 -- OUCH! » darkknight -- presents -- they like their heads in ROTK. Just imagine christmas. » Koren -- Man chrismas for Lu Bu is the permission to go on killing rampages. » Kelpie -- Man, Lu Bu didn't NEED permission to go on killing rampages! He just went! » LiaoHua -- Deck the halls with heads of holly FA-La-La-La-La » dugquatro -- tis the season to be bloody. fa la la la la la, la la la la
57 Sun Jian presently approached the Pass. He had four generals: Cheng Pu of Tuyin whose weapon was an iron-spined lance with snake-headed blade; Huang Gai of Lingling who wielded an iron whip; Han Dang of Lingzhi using a heavy saber; and Zu Mao of Wujun who fought with a pair of swords.	» _Volken -- Huang Gai -- Using an "Iron whip?" » _anonymous -- why didnt koei use that that would have been cool no one else has one its way better than a "rod" » JiaGai -- Iron Whip -- The iron whip was simply an iron rod or pole, so the depiction is pretty accurate. » YaLecSa -- whips -- Whenever they say "whip", they are referring to the type of whip used to spur on horses. I think. » Elemental -- Chinese Whips -- Chinese whips are basically rods. So Koei was pretty accurate. » Drackor -- The Iron Whip is in fact an Iron Rod. -- It's called a whip because like a whip, you smack stuff with. It's just a more descriptive name so as to know how to use it, after all, what would you do with a rod? Rod people to death?? No, you whip people with a rod. :P » XiangHu -- Huh? In my training, my sifu taught me that... -- a whip was a type of sectioned rod (Rod is similar to a staff except that a rod is smaller, more convenient to use, and usually used as a one-handed weapon). A chinese whip consists of short but heavy metal rods jointed together by a chain, which is attached to a handle. There are three, five, eight, and even thirteen sectional whips that are used as weapons in Chinese martial arts (which are known as soft whips because they are flexible). » Drackor -- XiangHu, those are sectioned staves, Ive seen them... -- but there are also iron whips, which are designed like swords, except instead of a blade, there is a pole protruding from the hand guard, which is as someone describes, ribbed. At the very tip of this rod it is spiked. If you go onto the internet and type in iron whip under a picture search, you'll find both pictures of the iron whip that has been described here. » XiangHu -- Drackor. Oh Ok. Now I see what you're saying. -- I've seen those types of weapons before, I just never knew what they were called. Awkward looking weapons though.
58 Commander Sun Jian wore a helmet of fine silver wrapped round with a purple turban. He carried across his body his sword of ancient ingot iron and rode a dappled horse with flowing mane.
59 Sun Jian advanced to the Pass and hailed the defenders, crying, "Helpers of a villain! Be quick to surrender!"
60 Hua Xiong bade Hu Zhen lead five thousand out against Sun Jian. Cheng Pu with the snaky lance rode out from Sun Jian's side and engaged. After a very few bouts, Cheng Pu killed Hu Zhen on the spot by a thrust through the throat. Then Sun Jian gave the signal for the main army to advance. But from the Pass, Hua Xiong's troops rained down showers of stones, which proved too much for the assailants, and they retired into camp at Liangdong. Sun Jian sent the report of victory to Yuan Shao.	» Youping -- W00t! -- Go Cheng Pu! YAY! » Thwart -- Stones? -- would they be throwing rocks or using catapults to hit them with boulders? » JiaGai -- Likely just thrown... or more accurately, dropped. » GongsunZanlives -- catupults weren't used till the battle of Guan Du.
61 Sun Jian also sent an urgent message for supplies to the commissary.
62 But a counselor said to the Controller Yuan Shu, "This Sun Jian is a very tiger in the east. Should he take the capital and destroy Dong Zhuo, we should have a tiger in place of a wolf. Do not send him grain. Starve his troops, and that will decide the fate of that army."
63 And Yuan Shu gave ears to the detractor and sent no grain or forage. Soon Sun Jian's hungry soldiers showed their disaffection by indiscipline, and the spies bore the news to the defenders of the Pass.	» SleepingDragon -- Dude -- Yuan Shu... you bastard!! How dare you! » JiaGai -- Yuan Shu -- If Yuan Shu wasn't already indignant I don't think he would've given in so readily to that suggestion. I believe he was looking for a reason NOT to give Sun Jian the necessary support and eagerly accepted the advice. » Koren -- Yuan Shu you cheap bastard can't even empty your pocket » XiaoQaio -- Hungry Sun Jian -- oh yeah, that's right... leave Sun Jian standing there starving in the cold... Yuan Shu, you bastard!! » WuTugu -- yeah, how would you feel if he did the same you unfeeling bastard -- Yuan Shu should have died there and then man, there was no reason for him to stop the supplys, all he cared about was glory and he wanted all of it the bastard. » guanping -- He might have thought he was doing right, if Jian would be worse than Dong Zhuo -- Yuan Shu acted on advice from someone he probably knew well and trusted.
64 Li Su made a plot with Hua Xiong, saying, "We will launch tonight a speedy attack against Sun Jian in front and rear so that we can capture him."
65 Hua Xiong agreed and prepared for the attack. So the soldiers of the attacking force were told off and given a full meal. At dark they left the Pass and crept by secret paths to the rear of Sun Jian's camp. The moon was bright and the wind cool. They arrived about midnight and the drums beat an immediate attack. Sun Jian hastily donned his fighting gear and rode out. He ran straight into Hua Xiong and the two warriors engaged. But before they had exchanged many passes, Li Su's army came up from behind and set fire to whatever would burn.
66 Sun Jian's army were thrown into confusion and fled in disorder. A melee ensued, and soon only Zu Mao was left at Sun Jian's side. These two broke through the Pass and fled. Hua Xiong coming in hot pursuit, Sun Jian took his bow and let fly two arrows in quick succession, but both missed. He fitted a third arrow to the string, but drew the bow so fiercely that it snapped. He cast the bow to the earth and set off at full gallop.	» darkknight -- SNAPPED!!! -- these bows are bloody huge and seemingly impossible to snap, i know he's strong but bloody hell. » Elemental -- Wow, he must have pulled the bow string really hard. » ScottieTheNerd -- Cheap Bows, low quality ^_^ » Shokyo -- Didn't they make quite good weapons? -- Do we have any sort of leads of the standards? Other than the fact that they break sometimes. » Flying Flash Swallow -- Well -- Weapon's technology has been on the rise fast since the dawn of time. It's a safe bet that in a few hundred years the bows will be stronger and the metal quality better, etc. » Elemental -- The weapons in the San Guo era weren't that good, you're right. -- But they get better. » LiaoHua -- Bows -- (sigh) They sure don't make em like they do in the future. » dugquatro -- lol -- i would sure like to see someone like xiao qiao goin around with a couple of oozis, and da qiao with a bazooka behind her. lol » dgr81 -- it's the Sun family curse -- their weapons always snap at the crucial moment...
67 Then spoke Zu Mao, "My lord's purple turban is a mark that the rebels will too easily recognize. Give it to me, and I will wear it!"
68 So Sun Jian exchanged his silver helmet with the turban for his general's headpiece, and the two men parted, riding different ways. The pursuers looking only for the purple turban went after its wearer, and Sun Jian escaped along a by-road.
69 Zu Mao, hotly pursued, then tore off the headdress which he hung on the post of a half-burned house as he passed and dashed into the thick woods. Hua Xiong's troops seeing the purple turban standing motionless dared not approach, but they surrounded it on every side and shot at it with arrows. Presently they discovered the trick, went up and seized it.	» Bastardman -- Nice -- Gotta Admit. That's a pretty cool trick from Zu Mao. Imagine this large army surrounding, shooting arrows and slowly advancing on a helmet. Damn, they'd feel stupid when they figured it out. » Gan Ning -- Huh? -- Where are Huang Gai and Cheng Pu and all the other generals in all this fighting? » lord_alden -- In Chaos... -- In an indescribable moment of chaos and confusion in a battle, tracking your lord in a veritable army of soldiers and following him is not necessarily an option.
70 This was the moment that Zu Mao awaited. At once he rushed forth, his two swords whirling about, and dashed at the leader. But Hua Xiong was too quick. With a loud yell, Hua Xiong slashed at Zu Mao and cut him down the horse. Hua Xiong and Li Su continued the slaughter till the day broke, and they led their troops back to the Pass.	» _Guan Yu -- Zu Mao is very brave! » Lu Bob -- Too Bad -- Too bad he wasn't a little faster for all that his bravery got him. » SleepingDragon -- Impressive -- Yet...these kinds of bouts of bravery were not uncommon back then. Seriously, men were sworn to die in place of their lords...It was just duty to Zu Mao, if not bad duty. » darkknight -- Zu Mao -- He was excellent and probably the best Wu general at this stage, except maybe Cheng Pu. » Koren -- He was not the best Wu general. He died too early to do much good. » Elemental -- Too Bad... -- Zu Mao might have made a good general for Wu if he survived. He pulled off a good trick by hanging the helmet on the branch. » Ragnarok -- He was a good "man" -- A good general is someone skilled in strategy and being able to read the troops. Zu Mao never displayed that. Still, he was a good soldier, and fulfilled his duty to his lord. » LordSunQuan -- but still -- Zu Mao was a great general but nevertheless he died too early to become really known. » IloveNDfootball -- Hmm.. -- This ruse is fairly brilliant. I'd think this would qualify as strategy. It shows boldness, creativity, and presence of mind. I would like to have him as a general. » LordSunQuan -- yeah -- most likely » LuBoyan -- The Spear -- Isn't odd that all the people with unusual weapons usually aren't very good warriors? (Exceptions being Huang Gai and Wen Yang). I think it is really odd that the most effective hand-to-hand weapons, the spear and sword, have been around the longest. Even up till the American Civil War pikes were being used. Every culture has or had their own version of the spear. » HuaXiong -- coulda been -- maybe he was good at everything else but the actual battle... guess we'll never know... as he got pwned by the great Hua Xiong! MWAHAHAHAHH » guanping -- Run you fool -- It would have been better to have continued running as you delayed them with the hat trick. No need to get killed » dugquatro -- back to what luboyan said... -- and zhuge liangs fan isnt strange? he was one of shus best generals in the game! » Yunsung -- He didn't use it on the battlefield. Zhuge Liang never fought. -- And with regard to Boyan, it usually takes more skill to master an unusual weapon. These people probably didn't take the time, or have the skill, to be able to use such a weapon in a battlefield situation.
71 Cheng Pu, Huang Gai, and Han Dang in time found their chief and the soldiers gathered. Sun Jian was much grieved at the loss of Zu Mao.	» Gan Ning -- Oh, Oh, here they are. » guanping -- My lord, we weren't hiding honest...
72 When news of the disaster reached Yuan Shao, he was greatly chagrined and called all the lords to a council. They assembled and Gongsun Zan was the last to arrive.
73 When all were seated in the tent Yuan Shao said, "The brother of General Bao Xin, disobeying the rules we made for our guidance, rashly went to attack the enemy: He was slain and with him many of our soldiers. Now Sun Jian has been defeated. Thus our fighting spirit has suffered and what is to be done?"	» Khaid -- Yuan Shao is covering for his brother, what an unfair leader. » JiaGai -- To be fair -- I don't think Yuan Shao is even aware of Yuan Shu's treachery here. He sees the obvious result and just chalks it up to Sun Jian screwing it up. On the flipside, if he did know, he probably wouldn't do anything about it. » ScottieTheNerd -- Bias -- Even if Yuan Shao did know about Yuan Shu's treachery, should we have expected any less of him?
74 Everyone was silent. Lifting his eyes, Yuan Shao looked round from one to another till he came to Gongsun Zan, and then he remarked three men who stood behind Gongsun Zan's seat. They were of striking appearance as they stood there, all three smiling cynically.	» darkknight -- smiling cynically -- I can just see the three sniggering at the back of the room "you guys suck"
75 "Who are those men behind you?" said Yuan Shao.
76 Gongsun Zan told Liu Bei to come forward, and said, "This is Liu Bei, Magistrate of Pingyuan and a brother of mine who shared my humble cottage when we were students."
77 "It must be the Liu Bei who broke up the Yellow Scarves rebellion," said Cao Cao.	» SkyAnimal -- Cao Cao: "Oh, Liu Bei? Yeah, that guy rocks!" » gillyruless -- Cao Cao and Liu Bei -- Cao Cao always had great respect for Liu Bei. Cao Cao calls Liu Bei a true hero. This paragraph is interesting in that it's the first time Cao Cao make a direct comment about Liu Bei. » DongDal -- There always was that thing between them... -- No matter what was going on, Liu Bei and Cao Cao always saw each other as their greatest rival.
78 "It is he," said Gongsun Zan, and he ordered Liu Bei to make his obeisance to the assembly, to whom Liu Bei then related his services and his origin, all in full detail.
79 "Since he is of the Han line, he should be seated," said Yuan Shao, and he bade Liu Bei sit.
80 Liu Bei modestly thanked him, declining.
81 Said Yuan Shao, "This consideration is not for your fame and office. I respect you as a scion of the imperial family."	» darkknight -- oh thanks -- shao's just said "i dont like you for your hard work and achievments, but because one of your distant relatives was a prince." » dgr81 -- clarification -- liu bei's refusal was a result of his being conscious of his own lowly status. what yuan shao said was just to reassure him in this regard. » Pluvius -- Nevertheless, this is still illuminating to Yuan Shao's character. -- Actually, illuminating to the entire aristocracy at this point in China's history (and, for that matter, most of the rest of China's history). The elite cared much more for status and heritage than talent, and Yuan Shao was a great example of this. He was the legacy of four generations of the powerful Yuan family, and was himself powerful due to this, despite being of no great talent. » TheYellowDwarf -- That's why you gotta respect Cao Cao for looking past all that heritage and upbringing nonsense. » BraveZuMao -- Cao Cao seems to have revolutionized the thinking of China's aristocracy, at least for a short time -- He valued talent and hard work/loyalty, but was smart and paranoid enough to keep those of great intelligence below him or dead.
82 So Liu Bei took his seat in the lowest place of the long line of lords. And his two brothers with folded arms took their stations behind him.	» Shokyo -- Liu Bei -- His modesty is so modest it's almost painful. A good quality in a leader if you ask me. » JiaGai -- Not necessarily -- His modesty and virtue prevent him from being an efficient and decisive leader. » Elemental -- Yeah -- I agree with JiaGai. He was too virtuous and modest, and that sometimes effected his leadership. » ScottieTheNerd -- Modesty -- A good quality in a decent dose, but it should not be the main attribute of a leader. It contrasts vastly with Cao Cao's form of leadership, and look where it got him. » atomicwillie -- dont forget, -- dont forget from chapter 1, he was a homeless person who hired a murderer and a butcher/drunk winemaker/farmer to be officers in his "virtuous" army » Pluvius -- Also don't forget -- Liu Bei's extreme modesty throughout the book is likely exaggerated by the biased author. » DongDal -- However, that modesty also helped him to get several great people on his side.
83 Even as they were at this meeting came in a scout to say that Hua Xiong with a company of mail-clad horsemen was coming down from the Pass. They were flaunting Sun Jian's captured purple turban on the end of a bamboo pole. The enemy was soon hurling insults at those within the stockade and challenging them to fight.
84 "Who dares go out to give battle?" said Yuan Shao.
85 "I will go," said Yu She, a renown general of Yuan Shu, stepping forward.	» DSPaul -- Yu She sez: -- "This is my only line." » drunkmastrZhangFei -- heh -- lmao thats funny
86 So Yu She went, and almost immediately one came back to say that Yu She had fallen in the third bout of Hua Xiong.	» MaChaChao -- Hua Xiong -- Boy.....he's good.
87 Fear began to lay its cold hand on the assembly.
88 Then Imperial Protector Han Fu said, "I have a brave warrior among my army. Pan Feng is his name, and he could slay this Hua Xiong."	» Solace -- I can hear Pan Feng now -- "Oh thank you for offering my head to the enemy mi'lord!" » Elemental -- Lol -- Pan Feng probably hates Han Fu now. » LiaoHua -- Pan Feng -- Most of the people kind of volunteered themselves and this guy tells Pan Feng to go and attack Hua Xiong. Maybe Han Fu thought he would get glory if his general killed him, or maybe he just didn't like him. » jolteony -- By this time, Zhang He was an officer of Han Fu... -- If he was there, I wonder why he didn't go to face Hua Xiong. I'd bet he'd more chances defeating Hua Xiong.
89 So Pan Feng was ordered out to meet the foe. With his great battle-ax in his hand, Pan Feng mounted and rode forth. But soon came the direful tidings that General Pan Feng too had fallen. The faces of the gathering paled at this.	» MaChaChao -- Hua Xiong -- Forget 'good'. This guy's VERY good! » Elemental -- Ordered? -- Pan Feng was ORDERED to go out and get himself killed by Hua Xiong! Sucks for him. He never asked to try his luck against Hua Xiong, his lord "asked" for him. But I guess thats what officers are for. To serve their lord. » brentbradly -- Koei look at ME! -- Dynasty Warriors 5 should have THIS guy as a playable character. He is so bold and powerful. » Shokyo -- I agree -- I also think Pang De should be added, instead of certain people maybe. I mean, Cao Ren! » Seraph -- Han Dang and Cheng Pu! -- Drop the damn Qiaos if you have to! They're useless! Han and Cheng rocked, and Cheng even has a weapon premade for him: The serpent spear! » Shokyo -- Don't drop the Qiaos -- They're my best characters! Shokyo is Xiao Qiao's Japanese name. Plus, the only woman who actually fought in battle was Lady Zhu Rong, so I think it's kinda sexist if they only have one woman. » toocold -- Qiao's -- The qiao's are cool. Drop Cao Ren, Zhang Jiao, and that bastard Dong Zhuo. They should add Jiang Qin and Cheng Pu. Cheng is one of the most talked about Wu Generals, I don't know why he's not in the game as a playable character. » darkknight -- pang de, cheng pu, hua xiong, wen chou, han dang » Melchiot -- Hold on here -- Koei shouldn't drop any guys, they're all good in their own rights. Besides, Zhang Jiao is my new fave character, I couldn't bear for him to be dropped. Cheng Pu, Hua Xiong and Han Dang definitely though. » HuaXiong -- was happy... -- i picked up dw4 and was so happy that now i could customize characters... immediately i made He Jin, Cheng Pu (once i got spear anyway) and when i was gonna do Lu Bu's musou mode i tried to make Hua Xiong and it didn't fit!!!!!!! well it did but without the space (like my name now) it just wasn't the same. either way, they shouyldn't get rid of anyone. why can't they just add more people? » Shokyo -- post -- Going back to DW3 (my DW4 disc isn't working properly) I always thought Zhang Jiao was a total wimp. Then I got his fourth level weapon; that was scarey... » toocold -- DW -- They can't keep adding more because it take space on the disc to keep info on all those character builds. I would assume they could add more but they wouldn't be able to keep 6 different costumes for each. I don't really know the absolute facts though, if someone around here did i would love to hear about it. » StallionFury -- was happy reply. -- yeah that does suck,and the fact there isnt really that many clothing and faces to choose from. » Blindbeggar -- DW4 -- Mine isn't working either! I got it brand new and my PS2 just wont read the disc! » iamnick -- blindbeggar -- take two peices of masking tape and put them just outside of the hole, on the label side of the disk, so it looks like an H. the l's are the tape, the - is the hole. Works for almost all blue-bottomed disks that arn't working, it should work for your dw 4. » Seraph -- Quick thought Shokes -- Is it sexist if it's true to the story? You can't call a book about the Arthurian legend sexist because there were no female warriors. You can call it sexist for a lot of other things, but not that. Women just did not fight in those times, so they're pretty much making stuff up. » guanping -- Others will call it sexist becuase of lack of females -- Pointing out the facts wouldn't stop them calling it sexist
90 "What a pity my two able generals, Yan Liang and Wen Chou, are not here! Then should we have someone who would not fear this Hua Xiong," said Yuan Shao.	» Drunken Master -- Yeah, where the hell are those two guys? -- He's not kidding here; Yan Liang and Wen Chou were near second to none, save for Lu Bu, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei. » Super Dian Wei -- This is a coalition... meaning leaders from all around are in one spot killing somebody. -- That means Yuan Shao has to leave his homeland. If he doesn't leave somebody to guard it, somebody else will claim it while he is away. » jolteony -- Han Fu -- By this time Zhang He served Han Fu, but maybe he stayed behind, Zhang He would surely be the match of Hua Xiong » Ragnarok -- Wrong. Zhang He is at this point, fairly young and inexperienced. -- Hua Xiong is an experienced veteran who's reputation alone seems enough to put his enemies to flight. Zhang He wouldn't stand a chance. Wen Chou and Yan Liang though; they are worthy of the chance. » HeroOfChaos -- Yeah, it will be a long time before Zhang He becomes good...
91 He had not finished when from the lower end a voice tolled, "I will go, take Hua Xiong's head, and lay it before you here!"	» Thwart -- digging into the minds of the other generals... -- Whow... dead man walking over there.
92 All turned to look at the speaker. He was tall and had a long beard. His eyes were those of a phoenix and his eyebrows thick and bushy like silkworms. His face was a swarthy red and his voice deep as the sound of a great bell.	» LiaoHua -- Gee I wonder who fits this description? » XiaoQaio -- Guan Yu's description -- Hmmm... I don't know... is it GUAN YU??!! » Seraph -- I suppose big eyebrows are heroic in China
93 "Who is he?" asked Yuan Shao.
94 Gongsun Zan told them it was Guan Yu, brother of Liu Bei.	» robert -- Quick -- Someone go tell Hua Xiong he's screwed! » Ultima -- Hey well ok I'll go tell him *runs outside* .... *Never comes back* » Seraph -- Bah -- It was was really (historically) Sun Jian who killed him... Guan's deeds are greatly blown up... » HuaXiong -- sun jian -- yeah i read that somewhere... but how did it happen? did sun jian duel him or did it just happen on the battlefield? » guanping -- The supply thing didn't happen till after Hua Xiong was defeated -- though Sun Jian was a vassal of Yuan Shu and Yuan was the only guy who could help him at the time so not like he had a choice... anyway Sun Jian was defeated the first time, recovered faster then expected and attacked again. In the fighting, somebody killed Hua Xiong. It wasn't Sun Jian himself but one of his men just to make it clear. Mind you Hua Xiong was a civil officer in history and Dong Zhuo held offf the northen allies. So it isn't just Guan Yu who gets overblown role in this. I believe I got that right
95 "And what is he?" asked Yuan Shao.
96 "He is in the train of Liu Bei as a mounted archer."
97 "What! An insult to us all!" roared Yuan Shu from his place. "Have we no leader? How dare an archer speak thus before us? Let us beat him forth!"	» Shokyo -- mean -- Beating people for volunteering to get rid of a major threat? Sounds like he has a screw loose, or his head so far up his ass he can see his food being digested. » JiaGai -- Remember... -- ... Yuan Shu is from an aristocratic background. In his eyes, for some unknown, low-ranking footsoldier to stand up in the stead of respetable, reputable officers is a great insult. Typical aristocratic snobbery at its finest. » Shokyo -- Not that, it's just that Yuan Shu reminds me of one of the snobby officers. -- One of them looses the King's colours and the he shifts the blame on to a Major who died trying to get them back. He gets shouted at for it :) Has anyone watched that Napoleon (don't know how to spell it) war TV show starring Sean Bean? Sharpe it's called. For those of you who have no clue what I'm on about, Sharpe is a common soldier who get's promoted to an officer when he saves Wellington's life. So... Common soldier-----> officer. I'll leave that to your imagination. » JiaGai -- That's... -- ... definitely not what Yuan Shu would have done. He'd probably ignore it altogether, as a common lowlife is supposed to throw their life away for someone like him. » HeroOfChaos -- People like Yuan Shu -- They think they are the center of the world and have no consideration for anyone else than themselves, like when he didnt give Sun Jian the provisions, he has no honor. » SkyAnimal -- Upstaging Nobility -- Things are arranged by standing, aristocracy are supposed to hold the better positions. Someone of standing, of fame, should be able to go forth and take care of things. Not some "nobody." "Sharpe's Rifles" (and the subsequent movies), were quite good and interesting. But the idea behind the story is preposterous, as Wellington (in reality) was totally against promoting enlisted to officers. But it is a great series of movies, I highly recommend. » Shokyo -- Sharpe -- My mum is obsessed with Sean Bean and we have every single Sharpe on DVD. » LordSunQuan -- haha -- ya mum like sean bean, i feel sorry for ya, ma mum like linkin park but i love them so am cool. » LiaoHua -- Movie -- I want someone to make a ROTK movie oh and my mom likes linkin park 2 LordSunQuan » WUuuu -- Sean Bean -- Who's that? » Shokyo -- You seen Fellowship of the Ring? -- Sean Bean plays Borrimer (spelling?) » WUuuu -- Well, that explains it. -- Thanks again. » Seraph -- There is a ROTK movie -- it's really long and all in Chinese. I've never seen it though. » MrLuBu -- Nope -- I think what you're writing about is the series that had about 1000 episodes. The actors kept changing around though.... If there is actually a film though, feel free to correct me. » DongDal -- There are three anime movies... -- each taking place at different times of the Three Kingdoms (The Yellow Turban rebellion, Chi Bi and the death of Zhuge Liang)
98 But Cao Cao intervened. "Peace, O Yuan Shu! Since this man speaks great words, he is certainly valiant. Let him try. If he fails, then we may reproach him."	» iamnick -- if he fails, he'll be dead... » ZhaoZilongfan -- Cao Cao -- You must admire Cao Cao, deep down, I think he is a nice guy » LuBoyan -- Nice guy? -- I prefer PURE EVIL, but hey, that's just me. Anyway, one thing I will give Cao Cao is that he is extremely good at recognizing talent and encouraging it, so it makes sense that he would do this sort of thing. I just disagree with how he uses the talent he finds. » ZhaoZilongfan -- Yes, however -- it is strange how Cao always shifts roles from: evil tyrant (Kong Rong) to honorable (Cornfield oath) to good tactition (Mi Heng) to rash, cowardly idiot (against Ma Chao, Zhuge Liang, etc) to good hearted (the Cai woman who was kidnapped by tribespeople) to good friend (Guo Jia) to prideful father (boasting about Cao Zhang) get my point? » guanping -- Cao Cao and people can be so many things -- Cao Cao was fairly good for his time » HeroOfChaos -- Cao Cao -- He wasnt only fairly good, he was one of the, if not the best, leaders in this whole novel. Sure he did some mistakes but so did all the other lords too.
99 "Hua Xiong will laugh at us if we send a mere archer to fight him," said Yuan Shao.	» JiaGai -- Snob -- Yuan Shao showed Liu Bei respect only because he had blood ties to the Han. The moment he discovers Liu Bei's brothers are nothing more than simple soldiers, he scoffs at the idea of them standing up for the honor of the upright and reputable leaders that had been gathered. Typical aristocratic snobbery. » MaChaChao -- Right on. » SunYi -- Think about it... -- Yuan Shao hadn't seen the brothers in action yet. Just because we KNOW they're mighty warriors doesn't mean that everybody else knows it. Liu Bei approaches Yuan Shao and says, "Can I send this guy to go fight Hua Xiong?" Yuan Shao says, "Who the hell is that? I'm not gonna send just anybody to fight Hua Xiong." In other words, Yuan Shao had no REASON to be impressed. » Tiamatty -- Laugh at you? -- Dude, I think you've got bigger concerns than the enemy going "neiner neiner neiner" right now. » Drackor -- Being laughed at is a serious issue.... -- It goes to the very heart of how war was conducted. By sending someone as unknown as Guan Yu, had Yu died it would have severly dampened morale. What does it say about an army when they are sending out no-name soldiers? It says that army has no one of skill worth sending. Yuan Shao has already lost 2 duelers? Men who were well known enough to have Shao's confidence to beat Hua Xiong. They were both killed. Now the army wants to go ahead and let this upstart fight him? No... The enemy going "neiner neiner neiner" as you put it... IS a big problem, but Shao has no other choice.
100 "This man looks no common person. And how can the enemy know he is but a bowman?" said Cao Cao.	» Khaid -- Only Cao Cao can recognize talents. » ScottieTheNerd -- Judgement of Character -- One of the key attributes of a leader. To see those who mask their intentions, and to see those who have nothing to hide.
101 "If I fail, then can you take my head," spoke Guan Yu.	» Elemental -- If he failed, he would be dead already, killed by Hua Xiong. » nuccha -- Yes... and then Yuan Shao & Co. could take his head (souvenir maybe) :p » yuanthedestroyer -- not if he ran away, that happens a fair amount, he's saying that he'll do it or die
102 Cao Cao bade them heat some wine and offered a cup to Guan Yu as he went out.	» HeroOfChaos -- Heat some wine?? -- If find it strange that they heat theyre wine, warm wine doesnt taste very good to me...
103 "Pour it out," said Guan Yu. "I shall return in a little space."	» DSPaul -- Guan Yu -- "Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!" » Shokyo -- post -- That's Ace Rimmer though! Or did Ace Rimmer nick it off him coz they didn't have copyright back then or something :) » darkknight -- shokyo -- I'm pretty sure they did have copyright back then » dgr81 -- damn cool -- i cant believe guan yu actually said that. i mean, how could he have been so SURE he would have beaten hua xiong when so many before him had tried and died (in less than a bout even).
104 Guan Yu went with his weapon in his hand and vaulted into the saddle. Those in the tent heard the fierce roll of the drums and then a mighty sound as if skies were falling and earth rising, hills trembling and mountains tearing asunder. And they were sore afraid. And while they were listening with ears intent, lo! the gentle tinkle of horse bells, and Guan Yu returned, throwing at their feet the head of the slain leader, their enemy Hua Xiong.	» Creslin -- Drumroll please... » MaChaChao -- Hua Xiong -- Well, good things never last. » _Cao Cao -- post -- You can see here a typical theatrical piece; scenes limited to the tent of the leaders, all battles reported secondhandedly, tension builds up to the breaking point, and the climax is Guan Yu coming back with Hua Xiong's head. » TheYellowDwarf -- Re: _Cao Cao -- Exactly! This is absolutely brilliant story-telling skills here. No swords, no blood, no horses. All you get is the description of sounds from as loud "as if skies was falling" to a "gentle tinkle of horse bells". And then, the head of Hua Xiong! We never get to see how Guan Yu fought, but his prowess was shown to be almost godlike by just a single paragraph. Absolutely amazing. » _anonymous -- Historically Sun Jian killed Hua Xiong. » Bastardman -- Really? Guan Yu didn't kill him? -- How historically correct is this book? I mean, aside from all the magic and stuff. Are there many discrepancies like this? » _Zhou yu -- yea -- yes i have heard many things about sun jian actually killing him, i think this was changed for the novel reasons because sun jian was defeated by hua xiong so they made a rising hero kill hua xiong. » lord_alden -- You must understand... -- Although most of it IS historically accurate, some of it is fiction. Although what you've heard may also not be accurate, sir. Understand that heard word is not written word. » Yorak -- Heroes of the Han -- Luo Guanzhong really glorified the Shu-Han gang, usually to someone elses expense. It's amazing how many deeds that are attributed to Guan Yu or Zhuge Liang were really done by someone from Wu... » darkknight -- Wu and Shu -- In this book it seems Shu have all the best generals and Wu has all the worst » JiaGai -- Worst? -- Wu? Have the worst? With guys like Pan Zhang, Xu Sheng, Cheng Pu, Huang Gai, Zhou Tai, Ding Feng, Lu Meng, Lu Xun, Zhou Yu and the awesome Gan Ning? I think not. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Heh -- Wu hardly has the worste generals, actually, every general worth mentioning in the book are either strong as hell so bad that if they fought it'd just be a pissinhg contest or they're so smart it's not funny, and perhaps you think this because the book is also Shu biased. » Elemental -- About how true San Guo Yan Yi is... -- I've heard somewhere that it was 7 parts fiction and 3 parts history. And Wu had many good generals, but most of them were underrated compared to Shu and Wei. » iluvNDfootball -- Mao Zonggong -- Mao Zonggong, who revised the book in the 1600's, had the bias. It was not Luo Guangzhong with the bias. » ScottieTheNerd -- Accuracy -- Remember though, San Guo Yan Yi is a novel, not a history book (San Guo Ji is the history book). SGYY is 70% history and 30% fiction. It was also written in a time when China was suffering from Mongol invasion and needed tales of heroes of old. Basically, it represents Shu as virtuous and Wei as evil. » darkknight -- wu's generals aren't bad -- lu meng, lu xun, zhou yu, lu su are great, but aren't warriors taishi ci, gan ning, xu sheng, ding feng, ling tong are the best warriors? » BraveZuMao -- Shu and Wu -- Shu and Wei were the protagonists/antagonists of the book. Wu plays the background chararacter throughout the book and presents interesting opportunities for the other two kingdoms. » jolteony -- BraveZuMao -- He is correct, the novel shows mostly the history of Liu Bei and Cao Cao, Wu is put at a secondary role since most of their extra invasions (like Shan Yue and Jiao Zhou) are cut off and most of what's only significant for the Shu/Wei history appears.
105 The wine was still warm!	» _Sam B. -- Timing -- Nice job by Guan Yu. But, Why was wine served warm? » _mujdamasta -- warm wine -- in china, spiced wine was served warm, as in many parts of spain, and in sume Inuit traditions » gillyruless -- Wine -- Wine being mentioned here is not the grape-based wine you might be thinking. The translator is using the term to describe a form of liquor. It is most likely to be grain based like sake or soju. » TingFeng -- Obviously -- Cao Cao warmed the wine for Guan Yu out of courtesy. He had to get into his armor, get up on the horse, ride to the battle field, kill the man, ride back, get out of his armor, walked back to the tent. Come on, it will take NASA to figure out a special liquid that remains warm for so long. » JiangWeiWarrior -- 10 minutes -- I think he can do it if he got ten minutes though. » JiaGai -- Exaggerations -- Remember that this is an epic and dramatic retelling of history. Realistically, yes, the warmed wine would likely cool before Guan Yu returned. However, knowing this, when the novel states that Guan Yu returned before it did, it tells you just how powerful he is. He killed a frightening warrior so quickly that his wine did not yet have a chance to cool. That's all this passage was meant to illustrate. » Shokyo -- Warm wine thingy -- I think this is more a question of glossing over some of the minor points rather than exaggerating the major ones. » GeneralZhaoYun -- It could be true -- You were on the battlefield all dressed and armoured up. The only thing you needed to do was ask permission to go out and meet the challenge. Lets asume the wine was heated and surely it could stay warm for 10 min, or 5 if you like. Ancient duels mostly occured on horseback where each side rode towards eachother and giving a blow. If Guan Yu was that strong he could have gotten on his horse, dashed out, met Hua Xiong, and killed him in the first encounter(bout) That wouldnt take more than 5/10 min » dgr81 -- maybe GY fought w/o armour for this particular battle -- He's only a foot archer, remember, with foot archer equipment (prolly just a bow), and not equipped like a general. » Shokyo -- In the first chapter, the Three Brothers were given lots of steel -- And they got a bunch of armourers to make weapons. My copy says nothing about armour, and I have no idea how much a "thousand catties" is, but I would have assumed that somewhere along the way they would have got some armour. » guanping -- Guan Yu and his fellow brothers where given armour -- If he was equipped then what it says isn't impossible
106 This doughty deed has been celebrated in verse:
107 The power of the man stands first in all the world, At the gate of the camp was heard the rolling of the battle drums; Then Guan Yu set aside the wine cup till he should have displayed his valor, And the wine was still warm when Hua Xiong had been slain.
108 Cao Cao was greatly excited at this success.	» robert -- Reason why -- the verse should continue, "and thus, Yuan Shao had to pay up." » Alagithil -- Yuan Shu, you mean. -- But I like it! The power of the man stands first in all the world, At the gate of the camp was heard the rolling of the battle drums; Then Guan Yu set aside the wine cup till he should have displayed his valor, And the wine was still warm when Hua Xiong had been slain. And thus, Yuan Shu had to pay up. (The idiot shoulda used his ice-cold cup.)
109 But Zhang Fei's voice was heard, shouting, "My brother has slain Hua Xiong. What are we waiting for? Why not break through the Pass and seize Dong Zhuo? Could there have been a better time?"	» XiaoQaio -- Hua Xiong's death -- Quote from DW4 "Hua Xiong has been slain? By whom?" Guan Yu appears. "I, Guan Yu has slain Hua Xiong!" » XiahouDunis God -- Why must everyone say this.... -- Guan Yu did not kill Hua Xiong, it is a well known and historical fact that Sun Jian killed him. This is just another example of Luo GuanZhong's propoganda to make the brothers look like Gods. » JiaGai -- Historically, Guan Yu did not kill Hua Xiong. -- However, he did in the novel and that's what most discuss, here. » WuTugu -- i thought the novel was true -- is the novel not in all based around the truth, i thought Guan YU killed Hua Xiong... not Sun Jian. » JiaGai -- Novel vs History -- The novel is a dramatic account based on the actual historical events of the three kingdoms era. Luo Guanzhong and later another writer (who's name escapes me at the moment) slanted the novel in favor of Liu Bei. The novel was written based on numerous sources, both historical and folklore in origin and is commonly referred to as 70% fact and 30% fiction. Do not take everything at face value in the novel. However, I'd like to remind everyone that history is written by the victors. Thus, historical accounts are ALSO slanted in favor of the ones in charge when it's written. Remember that bias when speaking of more factual accounts of three kingdoms history. In the end, can we really trust any written account? We just have to take it by faith that what history we read is true. » dgr81 -- sun jian killed hua xiong -- this is definitely NOT a 'well known and historical fact'. even if it WAS a 'historical' fact, at best, it is a little-known one. i'm sick of pple pointing out whats 'fact', what's not. why can't we just enjoy the book for what it is? » toocold -- guan yu -- he did alot more than killing hua xiong, and by the time its all said and done, you can take hua xiong off his resume and it still surpasses everyone by miles in terms of fighting prowess. » SunYi -- The book has a definite bias towards Shu (Liu Bei in particular) -- Historically, Sun Jian killed Hua Xiong. This is generally accepted fact. Historically, Zhou Cang did not exist. Wei and the Cao clan are portrayed as evil schemers, whilst Shu is portrayed as virtuous (besides Liu Shan, who very well may not have been as cold and incompetent as was made to believe). Wu is barely portrayed at all. It's impossible that Zhao Yun single-handedly held off a million-man army. He most likely had a large amount help, and the said army was probably much SMALLER. Keep in mind, Luo Guangzhong's father was executed. That may have tilted his perspective a bit, and it's unlikely that he was around for 100+ years of Chinese history. Much of this was probably passed down. Like JiaGai said, we cannot take everything at face value. I do, however, take issue with one thing he said - "history is written by the victors." If that's true, then Jin wouldn't have been portrayed so coldly. History is written by the survivors. » JiaGai -- It was an officer of the Jin that wrote the San Guo Zhi. -- The SGZ is treated as a historical account of the fall of the Later Han and the ensuing Three Kingdoms period. The San Guo Yan Yi, which this novel is translated from, is a dramatic retelling of the same events, using teh SGZ as a base. Because the SGYY is merely BASED on the SGZ instead of being a historical copy, Luo Guanzhong and writers who followed him slanted it how they wanted history to be viewed. Liu Bei looks far less virtuous and Shu warriors far less heroic in the SGZ than they do in the novel. » LuBoyan -- Also -- To see the bias of an author don't just look at the time period he wrote about, look at the time of the writer. After all, Luo wrote the novel over a thousand years after it happened. This the equivalent to someone in our day writing a novel about William the Conqueror. It most likely will not show the bias of William, but rather whoever is running the show at the time, England's very own Hannover constitutional monarchists. Does anyone know the political situation at the time of Luo Guanzhong? Perhaps Liu Bei was made to look noble in order to express the authors views on a current problem of succesion. » IloveNDfootball -- The Political Situation -- I believe, that at that time, the Jurchen Mongols had siezed the North of China, and the once-ruling Sung Dynasty was driven into what was once Shu. Since Luo Guangzhong was a Sung loyalist, his support of Shu is easy to explain. » Shokyo -- A little point about Chinese and Japanese languages -- They're both pretty similar. The Japanese name for the Dynasty Warriors series is Shin Sangoku Musou. Shin = real, Sangoku = Three Kingdoms and Musou = matchless. San Gou Zhi is Chinese for Three Kingdoms Era (obvious but what the hell) and San is the same for both, and Gou and Goku almost sound alike. I have been told (don't know if this is true) that the Japanese pilferred the Chinese language and altered it some. There are probably more words the same like that but the only other on I have seen is "Ai" (love.) » Alagithil -- But.. -- Japanese names and Chinese ones are totally different. Compare Fujitsubo with Zhu Rong... or just plain Zhu, since wasn't Fujitsubo just her last name? » JiaGai -- Interestingly enough... -- While the names may sound different in Japanese and Chinese, the characters that make up their names are the same. Though pronounced differently, the Japanese borrowed a great deal of their written language (kanji) from the original Chinese (hanzi). » GeneralZhaoYun -- As a chinese myself -- Yes we do have some characters similiar to the japanese language, but as jiaGai said, they are pronnounced way different. As for literature and lecture, I can only think of one novel/saga/myth that I have seen in both chinese and Japanese. It was'journey to the west' » jolteony -- I think.. -- I think Chen Shou who was the son of Chen Shi (who was traded by Xiahou Shang in Mt.Dingjun battle) also wrote a novel or was it him who wrote SGZ? » yuanthedestroyer -- about the linguistics bit -- Originally much of hiragana (one of the japanese languages) was taken from Chinese (i forget which branch). Hiragana then was simplified to create katakana, which was mainly used for onomatapeias and foreign words, once they were exposed to them. However, the Japanese still continued to use Kanji (which is really, really similar to Chinese). 3 languages... crikey. That's why I don't take Japanese anymore...
110 Again arose the angry voice of Yuan Shu, "We high officials are too meek and yielding. Here is the petty follower of a small magistrate daring to flaunt his prowess before us! Expel him from the tent, I say."	» _Shu Emperor Ma Chao -- Great Jerk Yuan Shu -- What a jerk. Here is Guan Yu having killed a great threat to the Alliance's cause and Yuan Shu verbally abuses him for being a low rank. » Bastardman -- Yeah, Yuan Shu's a tool. » Koren -- Yuan Shu must be feeling dissed about being so wrong! » Thwart -- This has been talked about before -- Yuan Shu was a Noble man from noble birth. If you heard a lower class soldier speak up at the higher officials, of course Yuan Shu is going to be pissed.
111 But again Cao Cao interposed, "Shall we consider the station of him who has done a great service?"	» Notorious -- Cao Cao is a great mediator, and that makes him a step ahead becoming a great leader. » dgr81 -- this shows cao's unique propensity to judge people by merit and not birth, appearance etc. » LiaoHua -- Cao Cao -- Cao Cao is my favorite of all the leaders in this book, he's intelligent, he can recognize talent and he's practical.
112 "If you hold a mere magistrate in such honor, then I simply withdraw," said Yuan Shu.	» ScottieTheNerd -- Yay... -- Yuan Shu:"I am threatening to quit and you better do something about it." Cao Cao: "Like what? Celebrate?"
113 "Is a word enough to defeat a grand enterprise?" said Cao Cao.	» iamnick -- cao cao -- After reading this far, i'd really like to read the verson slanted towards Wei, because so far it sounds like Cao Cao is smart, a good judge, practial, and even though his actions arn't always showing it, his motives seem to be well justified, and he already seems almost like a "good guy". Is the other verson translated on the web like this one is? » Explainer -- After this post and many posts discussing about biases, we put online a Note before the Overture.
114 Then he told Gongsun Zan to lead the three brothers back to their own camp, and the other chiefs then dispersed. That night Cao Cao secretly sent presents of meat and wine to soothe the three after this adventure.	» Solace -- Hey the meat and wine woulda soothed me too! » guanping -- paticurly the wine
115 When Hua Xiong's troops straggled back and told the story of defeat and death, Li Ru was greatly distressed. He wrote urgent letters to his master who called in his trusted advisers to a council.
116 Li Ru summed up the situation, saying, "We have lost our best leader, and the rebel power has thereby become very great. Yuan Shao is at the head of this confederacy, and his uncle, Yuan Wei, is holder of the office of Imperial Guardianship. If those in the capital combine with those in the country, we may suffer. Therefore we must remove them. So I request you, Sir Prime Minister, to place yourself at the head of your army and break this confederation."	» guanping -- I thought Lu Bu would take offence at Li Ru's comment.
117 Dong Zhuo agreed and at once ordered his two generals, Li Jue and Guo Si, to take five hundred troops and surround the residence of Imperial Guardian Yuan Wei, slay every soul regardless of age, and hang the head of Yuan Wei outside the gate as trophy. And Dong Zhuo commanded two hundred thousand troops to advance in two armies. The first fifty thousand were under Li Jue and Guo Si, and they were to hold River Si Pass. They should not necessarily fight. The other one hundred fifty thousand under Dong Zhuo himself went to Tiger Trap Pass. His counselors and commanders---Li Ru, Lu Bu, Fan Chou, Zhang Ji, and others---marched with the main army.	» _Stonewolf -- Translation -- Would Tiger Trap Pass be Hulao Gate? If so, are there any other translations like this where the battle referenced in a game like DW3 does not use the English translation but instead the phoenetic? » _WretchedPrisoner -- post -- Since I speak Cantonese, I would know how "Tiger" would sound like, and it does not sound a thing like "Hu Lao." It may be Mandarin, but I highly doubt it. » Michael M. Pettit -- post -- Tiger Trap Pass could very likely be Hulaoguan (Hu Lao Guan, Hulao Gate, whatever). The position of the two on the game maps I know from the ROTK series and the map on this site correspond almost pefectly. » _Mr.Porky -- Mandrin -- In mandarin, Lao Hu means Tiger. I am not sure why KOEI switched it backwards and called it Hu Lao Gate. » _watermelon -- Hu Lao = Tiger Trap -- Hu Lao is the pronounciation of Tiger Trap in mandarin. lol......Mr. Porky, you speak manarin yet you can't read chinese? » _anonymous -- post -- lol i agree with watermelon...hu is tiger, lao is trap. » Elemental -- Yes, Hu Lao gate is Tiger Trap Pass in Mandarin. » WuMing -- Yes. Tiger Trap Gate is Hu Lao Guan. -- River Si Gate is Si Shui Guan
118 Tiger Trap Pass is fifteen miles from Capital Luoyang. As soon as they arrived, Dong Zhuo bade Lu Bu take thirty thousand soldiers and make a strong stockade on the outside of the Pass. The main body with Dong Zhuo would occupy the Pass.
119 News of this movement reaching the confederate lords. Yuan Shao summoned a council.
120 Said Cao Cao, "The occupation of the Pass would cut our armies in two; therefore, we must oppose Dong Zhuo's army on the way."
121 So eight of the commanders---Wang Kuang, Qiao Mao, Bao Xin, Yuan Yi, Kong Rong, Zhang Yang, Tao Qian, and Gongsun Zan---were ordered to go in the direction of the Tiger Trap Pass to oppose their enemy. Cao Cao and his troops moved among them as reserve to render help where needed.	» Solace -- I must say -- Koei could have included a whole lot more leaders in the Hu Lao Gate scenario of the DW series. The only one of these eight mentioned that's in the games is Gongsun Zan. » JiaGai -- KOEI -- Consider the gameplay. There are just so many officers you can dump into an action game and still be fairly balanced. Gongsun Zan, the Yuans, Sun Jian, Cao Cao and Liu Bei are pretty much the only leaders that had anything significant to offer anyway. » Solace -- Gongsun Zan had something significant to offer? -- other than the three brothers I mean. » JiaGai -- The three brothers are MORE than enough. -- Would make very little sense for the brothers to be there and not Gongsun Zan, who was their commanding officer. » dugquatro -- gongsun zan should have a bigger role in the game. he is alot more important in the book.
122 Of the eight, Wang Kuang, the Governor of Henei, was the first to arrive, and Lu Bu went to give battle with three thousand armored horsemen. When Wang Kuang had ordered his army, horse and foot, in battle array, he took his station under the great banner and looked over at his foe.	» SkyAnimal -- And thought to himself, "Oh crap." » MrLuBu -- lol » Mattamatics -- LOL
123 Lu Bu was a conspicuous figure in front of the line. On his head was a triple curved headdress of ruddy gold with pheasant tails. He wore a warring velvet-red robe of Xichuan silk embroidered with thousand flowers, which was overlapped by golden mail adorned with a gaping animal's head, joined by rings at the sides and girt to his waist with a belt fastened by a beautiful lion-head clasp. His bow and arrows were slung on his shoulders, and he carried a long heavy trident halberd. He was seated on his snorting steed Red Hare. Indeed Lu Bu was the man among humans, as Red Hare was the horse among horses.	» Lu Bu Feng Xian -- Like in ROTK says "Among men Lu Bu... Among horses Red Hare..." » MaChaChao -- Lu Bu -- Boy, he's decorated pretty nicely there. Not bad for someone who's ready to go out and slaughter everyone. Hope he doesn't get blood all over that nice outfit. » darkknight -- duh -- that's why he was wearing red in case his shirt clashed with the blood stains... mind you i hear blood stains are all the rage in ancient China. » XiaoQaio -- Quote from DW4 -- "Is that who I think it is? It's Lu Bu! Lu Bu's come to destroy us! AAHH!!"
124 "Who dares go out to fight him?" asked Wang Kuang turning to those behind him.	» XiaoQaio -- Who wants to fight Lu Bu? -- Is that who I think it is? It's Lu Bu! Lu Bu's come to destroy us! AHH! (quote from DW4) » Tiamatty -- You really love that quote, don't you? » DongDal -- 0 -- WK: Who wants to fight Lu Bu? *Complete silence* » yuanthedestroyer -- then a few crickets... then Lu Bu kills them
125 In response a valiant general from Henei named Fang Yue spurred to the front, his spear set ready for battle. Lu Bu and Fang Yue met: Before the fifth bout Fang Yue fell under a thrust of the trident halberd, and Lu Bu dashed forward. Wang Kuang's troops could not stand and scattered in all directions. Lu Bu went to and fro slaying all he met. He was irresistible.	» _Sam B. -- huh? -- Irresistable? the word should be UNSTOPPABLE!!!!! » _Robert Steeves -- post -- Translations such as these sometimes cause such confusion in the wording. In our common language, 'Unstoppable' would be used. However, irresistible could also be read in terms of "could not stand to resist" "not resistible" or my favorite "resistance is futile." In that sense, it bears the same meaning as unstoppable, as the soldiers he fought could not stand to resist the fierce Lu Bu. thank you. jered_kincaid@hotmail.com » _ME -- Maybe the author thought Lu Bu was a sexy beast... » Drunken Master -- well, it could be worst; Luo could have said he was "scrumptiously delectable." » _Morter -- What exactly are bouts? -- Are those like, strikes? Or deadlocks? Or passes of the horses, like Jousting? » _TheNovak -- post -- I haven't studied Chinese history or anything, so I don't know for sure, but I think "bouts" are like passes in European jousts. » lord_alden -- To Answer A Few Things... -- Irresistable(sp?), means, basically, unable to be resisted, so in context, it was meant, in the battle situation, he was irresistable. As for bouts...I believe it is sort of like jousting, but they rush forth, try to best one another within 3-5 attacks, circle, and do it all over. » ScottieTheNerd -- Bouts -- As far as I know, bouts are the standard pass, similar to jousting. Ride in, strike a few times, repeat x50.
126 Luckily, two other troops led by Qiao Mao and Yuan Yi came up and rescued the wounded Wang Kuang, and Lu Bu pulled back. The three, having lost many troops, withdrew ten miles and made a stockade. And before long the remaining five commanders came up and joined them. They held a council and agreed Lu Bu was a hero no one could match.	» _anonymous -- retreat -- Was there anything special about ten miles, or are they just saying that to emphasize that their tails were between their legs? » drunkmastrZhangFei -- 10 miles -- A little bit of both, Ten miles is close enough for troops that want to come back to regroup plus find the deserters, also it's far enough away from your enemy you can see if they're advanceing toward you.
127 And while they sat there anxious and uncertain, it was announced that Lu Bu had returned to challenge them. They mounted their horses and placed themselves at the heads of eight forces, each body in its station on the high ground. Around them was the opposing army in formation, commanded by Lu Bu, innumerable horse and foot, with splendid embroidered banners waving in the breeze.	» Thwart -- questioning KOEI -- KOEI said that Zhang Liao was under Lu Bu's command at Hu Lao Gate. Did KOEI change that to make the game more fun or was Zhang Liao there? » ZhaoZilongfan -- Zhang Liao -- Originally he served under the army of He Jin, when he died, he served Ding Yuan, when he died, he served Dong Zhuo under Lu Bu... you follow?
128 They attacked Lu Bu. Mu Shun, a general of Governor Zhang Yang, rode out with his spear set, but soon fell at the first encounter with Lu Bu. This frightened the others. Then galloped forth Wu Anguo, a general under Governor Kong Rong. Wu Anguo raised his iron mace ready at his rival. Lu Bu whirling his halberd and urging on his steed came to meet Wu Anguo. The two fought, well matched for ten bouts, when a blow from the trident halberd broke Wu Anguo's wrist. Letting his mace fall to the ground he fled. Then all eight of the lords led forth their armies to his rescue, and Lu Bu retired to his line.
129 The fighting then ceased, and after their return to camp another council met.
130 Cao Cao said, "No one can stand against the prowess of Lu Bu. Let us call up all the lords and evolve some good plan. If only Lu Bu were taken, Dong Zhuo could easily be killed."	» LueBeithegreat -- Question about killing -- Why is everyone so worried about the strong guys like Lu Bu? Can't they just have archers kill him from a distance, instead of losing lots of guys? BTW, this is the first time I have posted on here so forgive me if this is a stupid question. » mattamatics -- There have been numerous sword styles that have been designed to repel projectiles. -- If I remember my history, Lu Bu was versed in a form of it. (That is also what armor is for) » Seraph -- If you could kill an officer that easily -- Then I assure you someone would have though about it and put it into action very very VERY fast. By the way, if you read on you will hear about lots of famous generals that died by way of the A(rrow). » Yunsung -- Well... There are sword styles designed to repel projectiles. -- Unfortunately, they were all abysmal failures. Also, the most likely reason they did not have archers shoot Lu Bu was his armor. His armor would have been of the highest quality, perfectly capable of repelling arrows, up to a certain distance. But, to get inside that circle, you had to enter Bu's "kill zone". Unless you killed him with the first shot, you were dead.
131 While the council was in progress again came Lu Bu to challenge them, and again the commanders moved out against him. This time Gongsun Zan, flourishing his spear, went to meet the enemy. After a very few bouts Gongsun Zan turned and fled; Lu Bu following at the topmost speed of Red Hare. Red Hare was a three-hundred-mile-a-day horse, swift as the wind. The lords watched Red Hare gained rapidly upon the flying horseman, and Lu Bu's halberd was poised ready to strike Gongsun Zan just behind the heart. Just then dashed in a third rider with round glaring eyes and a bristling mustache, and armed with a ten-foot serpent halberd.	» ZhangFeiOfYan -- Red Hare -- just thought that Red Hare was a 1000-mile-a-day horse and another says 500 what the heck » JiaGai -- Red Hare -- According to other side notes, the correct term is "1000 li a day." A mile is roughly about 3 li, so it's more accurate to call it "300 mile a day." » ZhaoDangWei -- Red Hare -- In chinese "Qian Li Ma" the translation 1000 li a day is a phrase that means a horse is strong, sturdy, fast and possess great stamina. It is much like the way "rock hard" would used. The object in description might not be actually as hard as rock but it is still hard nonetheless. » Tupac -- Chi Tu Ma in chinese -- do you know how much a chi is, i think it's 1 mile in chinese or somthin, that would explain it. » Reboot -- Chi Tu -- Chi Tu in this case means Red Hare. Chi = Red/Vermillion, Tu = Rabbit/Hare. Ma = Horse. Strictly speaking, Red Hare is Chi Tu, not Chi Tu Ma. » gillyruless -- Red Hare -- And Ma means a horse, so the literal translation of Chi Tu Ma is Red Hare Horse, which sounds strange in English. Red Hare sounds better as a name for a horse in English. The name for Red Hare in Chinese is in fact Chi Tu Ma.
132 "Stay, O twice bastard!" roared he, "I, Zhang Fei of Yan, await you!"	» Explainer -- Yan -- Yan was a state in the Warring States period (BC 475-221). Located in the northeast, and north of Qi. » Shokyo -- Hehehe... he said the b word. *ahem* Sorry... » drunkmastrZhangFei -- YEAH! -- YEAH!! THATS MY BOY! HE'S THE TRUE DRUNKIN MASTER! » darkknight -- Is Yan a state from Yanzhou? » Super Dian Wei -- I hear Zhou means state, so YanZhou means Yan State. » Solace -- "O twice bastard!" ? -- What's Fei gettin at? Maybe he had too much of the wine Cao Cao sent the night before. » Super Dian Wei -- I would guess his dad died, his mom re-married, and then this guy died. -- So he was a bastard not once, but twice. » Solace -- maybe it was because his dad died and Ding Yuan died, who was his adopted dad -- which means Fei was a whole lot smarter than me to come up with that name for Bu. » LiaoHua -- Insult -- Or it could have just been to insult him to stay and fight, or maybe Zhang Fei is smarter then i'm giving him credit for. » Tenma -- In my book, I like what it says a lot better. -- "Stay! Bastard with three fathers! Know me for Zhang Fei of Yan!"
133 Seeing this opponent, Lu Bu left the pursuit of Gongsun Zan and engaged the new adversary. Zhang Fei was elated, and he rode forth with all his energies. They two were worthily matched, and they exchanged half a hundred bouts with no advantage to either side. Then Guan Yu, impatient, rode out with his huge and weighty green-dragon saber and attacked Lu Bu on the other flank. The three steeds formed a triangle and their riders battered away at each other for thirty bouts, yet still Lu Bu stood firm.	» ZhangFeiOfYan -- Zhang Fei The Strongest -- Zhangfei didnt even need guan yu's help and if Guan yu would have stayed Lu Bu could have fallen Go ZHANGFEI » Juggalo -- Zhang Fei -- Zhang Fei is a powerfull leader and my fav leader in "Romance of the Three Kingdoms," but to say he could kill Lu Bu in a duel is just plain stupid. » ZhangFeiOfYan -- ZhangFei -- i'm just sayin he didnt need help. he prob wouldnt have killed him. u would just think about what would happen if no one jumped in, remember it said that "They two were worthily matched, and they exchanged half a hundred bouts with no advantage to either side." » Shokyo -- Could, but didn't » Juggalo -- no -- he didn't becaause he couldn't. It took all three just to tire Lu Bu out. » Shokyo -- Still didn't :p » JiaGai -- Okay just stop. -- Besides let's put it this way, Guan Yu was pretty well aware of Zhang Fei's abilities and he saw that Lu Bu wasn't budging no matter how hard Zhang Fei fought. He was genuinely concerned for his life so he joined the fight. Now Lu Bu had TWO exceptional men to fight and he still wasn't budging. Liu Bei, not a great warrior, but adequete in battle, joined the fray and STILL with three men circling him, Lu Bu wasn't giving any ground. It took a long, long duel with three men attacking him to finally tire Lu Bu to a point where he knew he would fall if he continued. If three men, two of them being awesome generals, could not take him down in a concentrated attack, then how could Zhang Fei beat him solo? In time Zhang Fei became more experienced and skilled a fighter and may have been able to stand toe to toe with Lu Bu, but to say that at this point he could, when all the evidence points otherwise, is foolish. » ZhangFeiOfYan -- Guan Yu -- he got impatient lol » JiaGai -- Impatience -- Considering Zhang Fei had been fighting all this time and Guan Yu had been watching on the sidelines where his brother isn't getting anywhere, he had every right to be impatient. If he wasn't concerned that Zhang Fei might get hurt or killed, why would he bother? It's not like Guan Yu had ego problems (I laugh at that notion) and decided he needed to steal glory from someone. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Heh -- Guan Yu with an ego problem? Funny, I consider him a better warrior in the long run than Lu Bu, I mean who did the Koreans or Chinease (Forget wich sorry im not exactly awake right now) build a temple of to bring back the spirit of to help fight off the japanease? It wasn't Lu Bu :P » JiaGai -- You misunderstand -- I didn't say he had one. Saying Guan Yu was lacking self-confidence is like saying Zhang Fei didn't like to drink. Besides, both Guan Yu and Zhang Fei would eventually mature into very effective warriors every bit as good as Lu Bu (and in some ways, even better). They just weren't there at this moment. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Oh -- Alright then we're agree'd :P » SkyAnimal -- Something of note -- How do we know what Guan Yu is feeling? Remember this is a story about a historical event. We don't know all the facts, and we really don't know what each character is thinking. Something to keep in mind is that actions speak louder then words, and really, actions speak the truth rather then thoughts and hearsay stories. Keep this mind as you read further. » JiaGai -- No, we can't know what they're thinking, exactly. -- For that matter, there's no way we can know what they were saying, exactly, yet Luo Guanzhong writes the dialogue. We make assumptions, even the writer himself, based on what we know of the relationships and personalities of each historical figure.
134 Then Liu Bei rode out to his brothers' aid, his double swords raised ready to strike. The steed with the flowing mane was urged in at an angle, and now Lu Bu had to contend with three surrounding warriors at whom he struck one after another, and they at him, the flashing of the warriors' weapons looking like the revolving lamps suspended at the new year. And the warriors of the eight armies gazed rapt with amazement at such a battle.	» lord_alden -- Another Dedication -- . Strong and fierce as lightning are the brothers three, so strong are they, even mighty Lu Bu took to flee. Though strong of heart and tough of will, even arrows can cleave their skill. -In dedication to the decisive battle the three eventually jointly took up against Lu Bu and made him flee. » theblackraven52 -- Three against one? The sworn brothers still couldn't defeat Lu Bu? -- I would think that with Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, and of course, Liu Bei, the brothers would be able to defeat him. However, I understand they didn't need to, as long as they killed Dong Zhuo, their main target. » Lu Bu Feng Xian -- Lu Bu is the best in fighting! -- Even the mighty Guan Yu n Zhang Fei plus Liu Bei can't beat him! » _Deruki -- post -- you have to remember though, that Lu Bu has been around for a bit while Zhang Fei and Guan Yu aren't at their peak fighting performance yet. » _Kev Yu -- You got to remember Lu Bu had a huge advantage. -- He had Red Hare the Horse of Horses, this would be a huge advantage in battle. » Flying Flash Swallow -- Lu Bu -- I thinkl Lu Bu is way overrated. Sure, he takes on the three brothers, but this is before much of their combat skill develops. Look at the later exploits of Guan Yu, Wen Yang, Deng Feng and especially Zhao Zilong before you start Lu Bu worshipping. » Shokyo -- Lu Bu -- While being an awesome fighter, can someone point out to me what Lu Bu has actually done that's so great? Fleeing from the brothers doesn't count, but if he beat them he would've been more than worthy of praise. He was not a moral man and did nothing to help anyone but himself. Well, at least I think that's right... ^-^; » ScottieTheNerd -- Fighting ability -- Though the brothers were not known for their skill at that time, remember that they weren't rookies either. Guan Yu just defeated Hua Xiong, and that is enough to consider him a worthy opponent. » SkyAnimal -- Good point -- Yes, fighting ability is in question. Hua Xiong beat general after general, and at the end of the day, Guan Yu stepped forward and slew him (when he might have been tired). Now, Lu Bu has slain a couple guys, but he also has the reknown of being an amazing fighter. The three brothers fighting him at once does validate the idea that he is amazing. » HuaXiong -- morale -- Lu Bu may not have done anything too exceptional, but i can imagine the feeling i would get fighting beside Lu Bu and just watching him hack down esteemed officer after officer. another thing to consider is that Lu Bu was a great warrior all the while being an idiot. imagine if there was a keen mind behind Lu Bu's fighting prowess and there would be an unstoppable warrior » LiaoHua -- In other words Guan Yu at his peak » WUuuu -- Guan Yu is hardly unstoppable -- It just takes the right set of circumstances to bring him down. No one is unstoppable, not even Zhuge Liang.
135 But Lu Bu's guard began to weaken and fatigue seized him. Looking hard in the face of Liu Bei, Lu Bu feigned a fierce thrust thus making Liu Bei suddenly draw back. Then, lowering his halberd, Lu Bu dashed through the angle thus opened and got away.	» Notorious -- I recon the brothers should have let Zhang Fei fight for himself... -- 3 against 1 win is nothing to be proud of. Lu Bu of course become the legend as the strongest General in this Romance. If only He had more brain, and a better heart... » RepublicanGuard -- True, but remember that the overall goal is to bring Dong Zhuo down. -- The best way to demoralize his forces and sweep into Luoyang is to kill Lu Bu, and I doubt the Allies cared how that was done. Most ruler/officer deaths in SGYY are "dishonorable," come to think of it, like Sun Jian, Pang Tong, Taishi Ci, etc. » Jiang Wei 712 -- Why? -- If it had only been Zhang Fei, he might have won, but then he would be higher than Liu Bei. Besides, RepublicanGuard is right, he is not the goal. » _anonymous -- post -- well, i think Zhang Fei couldn't have taken down Lu Bu alone because it took three just to send him fleeing. And it was not a matter of honor but rather to save Zhang Fei or else Sun Jian or Wen CHou would have come to help out. » dgr81 -- it is interesting to note that lu bu chose to make the feint against liu bei and not the other 2... -- the fact that lu bu could not prevail against the 3 brothers was testament to their skill, considering they did not have much battle experience yet. » _anonymous -- boredom over honor -- In verse 133 it said that Guan Yu got impatient. Maybe that's the only reason? » ZhangFeiOfYan -- Liu Bei and Lu Bu -- Lu Bu probably hit Liu Bei because he was the weakest of the three as you can see » Juggalo -- Zhang Fei would have been killed if kept fighting alone. -- Guan Yu joined the fight because fear of his brothers death, same as Liu Bei. All three couldnt even kill Lu Bu, all they did was tire him out and he couldnt guard against three anymore. » darkknight -- bu and bro's -- you say they have no battle experience but what about the 30 battles they have been in? it wasn't dishonourable because they just wanted to save Fei and if 3 couldn't win, how could Fei on his own? » Solace -- Thank you darkknight -- it's about time ppl stop making excuses for the three brothers. Lu Bu did not have more battle experience than them, more likely he had a whole lot less. They couldn't beat him because quite simply they were not equal to the task. Bu was a better warrior than any of them, and nearly as good as all three of them together. This is not a slight against the brothers, they are three of my favorite characters, but no matter how good you are there is always someone who is better. So get over it Shu fans, none of them were as good a warrior as Lu Bu, nor would any of them become as good as he was either. » Koren -- Yeah I agree... -- Shu fans, remember the three brothers actually had a heart.... and a brain!!! » Flying Flash Swallow -- Three Brothers -- They did have some battle expeirience, yes, but against YELLOW TURBANS. Not exactly renowned for there skill in battle. Lu Bu grew up a minister's son, trained for battle. What was Liu Bei's profession? Shoemaking! Guan Yu, Zhang Fei or Zhao Zilong in their prime could have taken Lu Bu in his. » iluvNDfootball -- Hey! -- I'm a Shu fan, what's that supposed to mean? So I like Shu. And if they fought Lu Bu in their prime, they would've won! If ZHang Fei in his prime fought Lu Bu in his, it would've been a draw. But the fact of the matter is, three brothers battled Lu Bu. Three brothers forced him back. The What If...? questions don't apply to what happened. » ScottieTheNerd -- Prime? -- Again, you speak of theory. Gee, I'm sure Lu Bu would've defeated the brothers in their prime if he had taken them on one-on-one, but that didn't happen, did it? Zhang Fei might have defeated Lu Bu in his prime, but he was not in his prime, and he didn't beat Lu Bu. What is there to argue? Lu Bu was clearly the stronger warrior. Battle experience? Training is no substitute for experience. Lu Bu might have been trained for battle, but the brothers actually fought, not to mention that Guan Yu recently killed the mighty Hua Xiong. The point is: it took three of them to force Lu Bu to retreat. It doesn't matter if they defeated him or not, it still reinforces Lu Bu's prowess in battle. » HuaXiong -- plenty of experience -- i just realized.... the yellow scarves rebellion happened in what 184 ad? and the battle against dong zhuo happened in 191... thats 7 seven years that Liu bei and the others would have had battle experience. i'm not saying they've been fighting for all of those seven years but nonetheless... and Guan Yu was born in 162, making him 29. not exactly a kid... » JiaGai -- Experience -- The Yellow Turbans had no warriors even close to the skill or talent of a Lu Bu. Yes, Zhang Fei and Guan Yu tore up the ranks of the Turbans and are not complete strangers to battle. However, defeating an army of poorly trained warriors is far easier than going up against a man who's very existance is battle. It's like stepping up from the amateur ranks to the pros. It's a whole different game. » darkknight -- the yellow turbans had xu huang and xu chu » JiaGai -- Were they? -- Xu Chu was never a yellow turban. Perhaps Xu Huang was, but I can't remember any passages from the novel referring him to as a former yellow turban. » VGuyver -- Lu Bu was a great warrior but... -- As powerful as he was. Zhang Fei and Guan Yu were pretty close to matching some of his skill. 100 hundred bouts went on before Guan Yu decided to charge in out after getting restless (Book seems to suggest he was bored) and then Liu Bei came in because he thought Lu Bu may indeed kill one of his brothers. Honestly, I think Lu Bu was just fighting Zhang Fei but not to his fullest; when Guan Yu arrived, they were on equal terms; Liu Bei simply titled everything to the allied forces.
136 But was it likely they would allow him to escape? They whipped their steeds and followed hard. The soldiers of the eight armies cracked their throats with thunderous cheers and all dashed forward, pressing after Lu Bu as he made for the shelter of the Tiger Trap Pass. And first among his pursuers were the three brothers.	» Bastardman -- "And first among his pursuers were the three brothers". -- That destroys the theory that maybe Guan Yu and Liu Bei were only there trying the save Zhang Fei. Cheap bastards. » _anonymous -- or... -- It's possible they started to save Zhang Fei, succeeded, but still wanted to kill Lu Bu for morale purposes. Besides, Lu Bu was the best, all one-on-one battles against him would be futile, and in the end cheap or not, they won. » ZhangFeiOfYan -- NAH -- ZhangFei didnt need help. yes i'm a big fan and all but it did say sumthin about them 2 ( Lu Bu and Zhang Fei ) fighting back and forth with neither gaining the upperhand. Guan Yu prob wanted the kill for the fame. i dont know you tell me » Shokyo -- Zhang Fei -- He was said to have the strength of Lu Bu and the fighting skills of Ma Chao. I think that's a good thing. » Juggalo -- Once again -- ZHANG FEI DIDNT STAND A CHANCE!!! » darkknight -- you lot -- just shut up and listen to annonymous and juggalo. » Solace -- Thank you again darkknight. » ChangPei -- I Agree -- There's no doubt in my mind Lu Bu not only had Zhang Fei's number but the other's aswell one on one. The only reason why he was pushed back is probably for the simple fact no one could match three men at the same time. And definitely if it's 3 skilled men no matter how good you are youve only got a spear. The odds were just too much but i believe if the fight continued Zhang Fei would have fell first. And even at later date Lu Bu would still win simply because he's a better fighter. And you have to think 3 against one it's amazing Lu Bu stayed that long it's an incredible feat! So i think Lu Bu deserves all the credit he gets. » darkknight -- changpei -- thanks, so much bro, testify » Rahonavis -- Lu Bu -- As a veteran warrior I'd have to say Lu Bu was probably the best. However, Zhang Fei and Liu Bei and Guan Yu were all formidable fighters. Both Zhang Fei and Guan Yu on their own would've put up one hell of a fight on their own; but Lu Bu was an extraordinary fighter to begin with. » toocold -- Zhang Fei was younger and even if lu bu isnt quite "old" yet zhang fei must have more endurance. -- It's one thing to beat some one and a whole other thing to just not lose. I think if zhang fei could have out lasted lu bu in a fight, if he were wise and patient enough to do so. It's like the art of war says: "One can secure himself against defeat, but can only win if his oppenent affords him the opportunity" or something like that. ...just another way to look at it. who knows. » MrLuBu -- Zhang Fei rules -- Think how easily Lu Bu beat everyone else then was "evenly matched" for 50 bouts with Zhang Fei! I mean, Lu Bu was trained practically from birth and was feared by the whole battlefield but Fei was just a butcher of low rank and they were "evenly matched". Zhang Fei is the master (but Lu Bu is cool). » iamnick -- Lu Bu -- Lu Bu had been fighting all day long, and then a butcher comes up to him and lu bu just doesn't have the energy in him to kill him. Then Guan Yu comes, and so lu bu realizes he has to push his all, and so Liu Bei comes, and Lu Bu sees that he can't keep it up for long right now, so he leaves. He would have won in a 1 on 1 if he were rested, but he was already tired, and they were rested. » guanping -- I believe Fei got a boost while fighting because of who he was taking on in a duel -- If that wore off and his brothers hadn't interfered... » SNDiablos -- in the end though i do have to give credit for the battle to Lu Bu. -- I mean really two of the best fighters of the time plus one throw in vs. Lu Bu. No wonder he couldnt win. I think this is probalby the only legend in Dyansty Warriors 4 XL that is realistic. I remember taking on these three with lu bu on extreme. Ive never been juggled so many times in my life. Truthefully Lu Bu could have easily bested Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Liu Bei if he hadnt been fighting all day long. » DongDal -- Who knows? -- At the time all we can be sure of is that Lu Bu was beaten by the three brothers. If he had continued one on one against Zhang Fei he would have won I believe. A few years down the line though... » guanping -- It is harsh to say that he lost but in the end he did, your right DongDal » DongDal -- Thanking you! ^__^ » Drackor -- Overrated or Underrated. -- While it's true that this fight IS a testament to the skill of Lu Bu, I don't agree that he is underrated at all. I DO agree that he is overrated, probably as much as Zhuge Liang is. Allow me to inject alittle historical fact to prove my point. Lu Bu was a master of martial arts, he studied under a very well known trainer of his time. The Three Brothers were, as far as this book is concerned, peasants who took up arms. The ONLY experience the brothers had at combat was killing Yellow Turbans. The turbans were nothing more than civilians with weapons, which is what the brothers were. How much skill could they aquire during 1 campaign compared to years of training under a very skillful master? Now on to the fight itself. The only real difference between fighting 3 people as opposed to 1 is you're on the defensive more, there are less opportunities to strike a blow yourself. For a man who is supposed to be so great why is it he can't seem to find an opening against 3 untrained peasants? While it may seem all that difficult it shouldn't be. I know my Sifu taught me defensive maneuvers that are also treated as offensive. My point in all this is a Master of Martial Arts compared to Three Peasants, shouldn't even be a challenge. » SNDiablos -- Either way, look at the facts. -- Lu Bu is tired form fighting all day long, the three brothers are well rested, Guan Yu recently slayed the mighty warrior Hua Xiong, and the other two did have experience in actual battle field. » Drackor -- To the victor go the spoils... -- Even if you take into account the life experience of the Three Brothers, that dosen't account for a fraction of the experience of skill Lu Bu should have. As for the fighting all day, I think that's an exageration. He didn't step into battle until the Coalition reached Tiger Trap Pass. Once they did he fought two bouts before he started to fight Zhang Fei, neither of which lasted more than 50 bouts tops. He did most of his fighting against the Three Brothers. As for the comment about history, keep this in mind. It dosen't work to Cao Cao's favor to downplay Lu Bu. You don't say stuff like "Stupid Beast or Coward of a Man" about your enemy to justify your actions against him, he's an enemy, you kill enemies during wartimes. The idea is to make your enemy look good, so you look even better for defeating him. That's why every military commander keeps a journal. » guanping -- Drackor -- Lu Bu fought many bouts, only withdrawing when facing seven army's. Later that day he fought some more and then came the Three Brothers duel. I somehow doubt Lu Bu ended up fighting in the Passs for only a day as well. They didn't back then. Cao Cao called him an overgrown bear I belive and admired him as a fighter, not so much as a commander. They also do say insulting things about the other army to lift morale and shake the other army's confidence » Drackor -- Guanping -- It's true they would insult the army for their benefit, I never implied they wouldn't. It's not to Cao Cao's benefit to say bad things about an enemy when recording the battles. Whether it's in song or story or just a written account of what happened, it would minimize Cao Cao's victory to point out Lu Bu's flaws. The only time pointing out flaws is advantageous is when you're pointing them out because you exploited them. » guanping -- Why would Cao Cao record his own battles? -- He might be to busy trying to unite the land. Only after the land was united, after Cao Cao's death, was accounts of the battles written as far as I am aware. » Drackor -- Where else would the info come from? -- As far as I know the SGZ was written during the Jin Dynasty, some 300 years after it all took place? So where did the information come from? It would have come from written accounts that were done during those times, or stories handed down from person to person. Either way, the writer would have had to get his information from somewhere, unless he made it all up. As for Cao Cao recording his own battles, How long do you think a campaign took? Sima Yi laid out the time frame it would take to quell a simple rebellion within the Kingdom, which was 1 year. It's very reasonable to assume that campaigns against the other kingdoms took even more. The Campaign against Lu Bu could have taken several months. Do you think they were on the battlefield constantly? No. He had to be doing something in camp when they weren't fighting. Its very possible that he kept a journal, to record day by day, what was going on. Of course it's true that he might not have also. Point being, don't think that because he was at war that he didn't have time for other things, the battles arn't from sun up to sundown. Cao Cao was also very ambitious as we know, he could have very well hired historians to keep recorded accounts of things. It wouldn't have been very smart for said historians to paint an unflattering picture of him by doing so to the enemies he defeated. » guanping -- I'm guessing records are kept in each court. -- Each side had its own civil officers, and one thing they do is keep records even then I belive. I think chances are these could be found in the Jin court. That and yes the tales handed down from generation to generation. I belive the Lu Bu campaign took two years or more. He probably relied on the historians of the court to write down what was going on. I don't think journals were used much then, but you do bring up some interesting points. Lets agree to blame it on historians, past and present for the biased subject that is history! » Drackor -- Sounds like a plan to me! :) » TomMurch -- Hey, that hurts! (historian Tom Murch runs away crying). -- Seriously, though, you're right - history is mostly written by the victors, and it's better to say "i killed the awesome Lu Bu" than it is to say "Lu Bu was a wimp and i duffed him over with my army blindfolded". Such is the way of the world. Most people exaggerate their achievements - esp. during wars. Or on computer games. » Tiamatty -- Journals -- Mneh, maybe he kept one, maybe he didn't. It is funny thinking of Cao Cao sitting in bed saying, "Dear diary, today I executed 3 plotters. I killed them with swift kicks in the balls, over and over, until they just stopped wanting to live." But anyway, Cao Cao did record at least one book, which he later burned after someone made a joke about it. Sensitive, isn't he?
137 An ancient poet has told of this famous fight in these lines:
138 The fateful day of Han came in the reigns of Huan and Ling, Their glory declined as the sun sinks at the close of day. Dong Zhuo, infamous minister of state, pulled down the youthful Bian. It is true the new Xian was a weakling, too timid for his times. Then Cao Cao proclaimed abroad these wicked deeds, And the great lords, moved with anger, assembled their forces. In council met they and chose as their oath-chief Yuan Shao, Pledged themselves to maintain the ruling house and tranquillity. Of the warriors of that time matchless Lu Bu was the boldest. His valor and prowess are sung by all within the four seas. He clothed his body in silver armor like the scales of a dragon, On his head was a golden headdress with pheasant tails, About his waist a shaggy belt, the clasp, two wild beasts' heads with gripping jaws, His flowing, embroidered robe fluttered about his form, His swift courser bounded over the plain, a mighty wind following, His terrible trident halberd flashed in the sunlight, bright as a placid lake. Who dared face him as he rode forth to challenge? The bowels of the confederate lords were torn with fear and their hearts trembled. Then leaped forth Zhang Fei, the valiant warrior of the north, Gripped in his mighty hand the long serpent halberd, His mustache bristled with anger, standing stiff like wire. His round eyes glared, lightning flashes darted from them. Neither quailed in the fight, but the issue was undecided. Guan Yu stood out in front, his soul vexed within him, His green-dragon saber shone white as frost in the sunlight, His bright colored fighting robe fluttered like butterfly wings, Demons and angels shrieked at the thunder of his horse hoofs, In his eyes was fierce anger, a fire to be quenched only in blood. Next Liu Bei joined the battle, gripping his twin sword blades, The heavens themselves trembled at the majesty of his wrath. These three closely beset Lu Bu and long drawn out was the battle, Always he warded their blows, never faltering a moment. The noise of their shouting rose to the sky, and the earth reechoed it, The heat of battle ranged to the frozen pole star. Worn out, feeling his strength fast ebbing, Lu Bu thought to flee, He glanced at the hills around and thither would fly for shelter, Then, reversing his halberd and lowering its lofty point, Hastily he fled, loosing himself from the battle; With head low bent, he gave the rein to his courser, Turned his face away and fled to Tiger Trap Pass.	» SkyAnimal -- Another tale presented with the main story -- If this poem is to be taken seriously, then we are granted a "second perspective" of the fight that took place. We can see how different Lu Bu's outfit is, and the characterization of the battle is different. This helps show how different observations can be made. » guansghost -- One hell of a Poem -- Pity it didn't happen that way. That would have made it much better.
139 The three brothers maintained the pursuit to the Pass. Looking up they saw an immense umbrella of black gauze fluttering in the west wind.
140 "Certainly there is Dong Zhuo," cried Zhang Fei. "What is the use of pursuing Lu Bu? Better far seize the chiefest rebel and so pluck up the evil by the roots!"
141 And he whipped up his steed toward the Pass.
142 To quell rebellion seize the leader if you can; If you need a wondrous service then first find a wondrous man.
143 The following chapters will unfold the result of the battle.

Back to Chapter 4   |   Home   |   Next to Chapter 6

Copyright © 1997 - 2005 by ThreeKingdoms.com