««« Chapter 3 »»» In Wenming Garden, Dong Zhuo Denounces Ding Yuan; With Red Hare, Li Su Bribes Lu Bu.

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1 What Cao Cao said was this: "The eunuch evil is of very old standing, but the real cause of the present trouble is in the improper influence allowed them by the emperors and the misplaced favoritism they have enjoyed. But a gaoler would be ample force to employ against this kind of evil, and getting rid of the main culprits is quite enough. Why increase confusion by summoning troops from the regions? Any desire to slay all of them will speedily become known, and the plan will fail."	» _SimaYi -- There ya have it, the suspense is over. » ZhangLiaoRulz -- O.O -- lol sima yi » SnakeX -- :D -- Would've been more "suspency" if what he said came a few paragraphs after, not at the beginning. » Rahonavis -- Eunuch -- Almost in every era of Chinese history, the court is constantly plaged by eunuchs. As the emperor and his family's own personal servants, they hear a lot and tend to have the emperor's ear in many matters. A lot of emperors were too stupid to know the difference. There were many occassions when a imperial edict was passed that NO eunuch may be allowed on be involved in matters of state. This however, doesn't mean words are not passed about. Some officials always wants inside info, the eunuchs become very useful tools. » LiaoHua -- Pronunciation -- how do u pronounce eunuch? » Shokyo -- Putting it bluntly... -- Yoo-nick. » ChaoYun -- Well... I say it Yoo-nuch, how you got a 'i' sound from a 'u' i do not know :p » LittleFool -- Eunuchs often served purposes... -- They were often used as the eyes, ears and hands of the emperor outside the court. Loyal eunuchs used properly could lend an emperor great power. There are instances where in delicate political situations eunuchs were quite useful for one simple reason. If a minister or general were to seize power, they could instate themselves as emperor and destroy the dynasty - hence handing them power was a gamble. Not so for eunuchs - by their very definition incapable of usurping a dynasty. Thus while an emperor might fear his advisors and generals - eunuchs were harmless. As we have seen this is untrue - their harm is merely more subtle, and is not seen but for over time.
2 "Then, Cao Cao, you have some scheme of your own to further," said He Jin with a sneer.	» Pang Tong -- lol -- Doesn't he always... » Shokyo -- Gotta love our "crafty hero." ^-^ » lufengxianorkongming -- why does everyone like cao cao? he's a butthole » Shokyo -- OK, first thing, tell me why Cao Cao is a butthole, then I'll tell you why he's not. » Yunsung -- Seriously... apparently, you were taken in by the obvious Shu prejudice in this book. -- Please try to realize that the author was a Shu supporter, and thus added an Anti Wu/Wei spin. Think of this, and take the events in the novel with a grain of salt. » WUuuu -- Hey, Take the events straight up as fact, Cao Cao still wouldn't be a butthole. » chrisdalby -- Maybe no butthole but He Jin is damn right. -- Cao Cao ALWAYS LOOKS OUT FOR NUMBER ONE. I don't like He Jin, but I don't trust Cao Cao in the slightest.
3 Cao Cao left the meeting, proclaiming, "The one who throws the world into chaos is He Jin!"	» guanping -- Well considering what one guy said about you and chaos, you should be glad, Cao Cao... » DongDal -- lol -- True, true.
4 Then He Jin sent swift, secret letters far and wide to several bases.
5 It must be recalled that Dong Zhuo had failed in his attempt to destroy the Yellow Scarves rebellion. He would have been punished if he had not bribed the Ten Eunuchs heavily for their protection. Later, through connections in the capital, he obtained rapid promotions from General to General of the Front Army, to Lord of Aoxiang, to Imperial Protector in the western region of Xizhou and Commander of an army of two hundred thousand troops. But Dong Zhuo was treacherous and disloyal at heart. So when he received the summons to the capital, he rejoiced greatly and lost no time in obeying it. He left a son-in-law, Imperial Commander Niu Fu, to look after the affairs of Xizhou and set out for Luoyang. Dong Zhuo took with him a huge army and four generals---Li Jue, Guo Si, Zhang Ji, and Fan Chou.	» firsthanddeath -- son-in-law? -- if dong zhuo had a son in law, then he had to be married. Would his wife be Diaochan? » JiaGai -- Just because Dong Zhuo lusted after Diao Chan doesn't mean he didn't have a wife or two or three. -- He was a pretty powerful general and possibly had already married. Just because the novel doesn't mention it specifically doesn't mean he wasn't. » Solace -- to firsthanddeath's query -- at this point Dong Zhuo has not yet met Diao Chan » Super Dian Wei -- The multiple wife thing in China -- There is also the matter of consorts. Back then, you could have a bunch of wives and butloads of consorts. Ah, the wealthy people of China were Hugh Hefner's of their time. » Shokyo -- consorts -- Are they like mistresses or concubines? I know Yuan Shao had no less than five concubines (horny bugger) » JiaGai -- Yep -- Concubines, mistresses, consorts, whatever you wanna call em it ends up being the same thing. Certain words sound more "elegant" than others, though. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- multiple wives -- Man, I can't even stand the ONE I have now, I would hate to be a general back then >.< » Super Dian Wei -- But you see, drunkmastrZhangFei... -- back then, due to the heavy amounts of modesty, the wives were highly unlikely to "bitch and moan", so really, it would be like having someone who believes her purpose is to "serve her master". Sound better? » drunkmastrZhangFei -- ALOT -- Alot better! ^.^ I gotta teach my wife modesty. » guanping -- rich men -- I think the rich men only saw their wifes/ concubines/ mistresses at night time/ whenever he felt like it or at special events where both had to be there. lucky men » Heika -- Dong Zhuo -- It is interesting that such a general owed his continued existence (and financial future) to the very eunuchs that so much of China wanted to destroy. It is further interesting that he was so willing to turn against them. It would seem that the Ten Regular Attendants are not the only treacherous servants in the Han court.
6 Dong Zhuo's adviser and son-in-law, Li Ru, said, "Though a formal summons has come, there are many obscurities in it. It would be well to send up a memorial stating plainly our aims and intentions. Then we can proceed."	» darkknight -- Li Ruuuuuuu!!!!!! -- I think Li Ru is great. He ranks with Jia Xu, Xun Yu, Zhou Yu, Lu Meng and Lu Xun. Not Zhuge, Sima, Pang or Guo Jia » Solace -- I have to agree -- Li Ru was quite intelligent » theonlyone -- Li Ru -- wouldn't this guy be considered a bad guy though? i mean, he advised Dong Zhuo. » Super Dian Wei -- Sure he's a bad guy, but he is still friggin smart. » SkyAnimal -- Family -- Note how two son-in-laws are mentioned. Dong Zhuo can proceed with his bid for power, and have support for it, because if Dong goes up, the rest follow. If Dong falls, the rest follow. » ChaoYun -- Bad guy? -- Well, i would have thought he's just loyal to his master, i don't think his intentions were bad, he WAS bound to Dong Zhuo via family wasn't he? I'm sure while the Masters may be considered the bad guys, the servants are just bound by duty. He was very intelligent though i have to agree as well, » ShuTiger -- Had Li Ru Served someone That was Worthy, Then maybe Dong Zhuo might not have been so powerfull! » MaTseng -- this guy would have been very influential. too bad that he is Dong Zhuo's bitch.
7 So Dong Zhuo composed something like this:
8 "Thy servant knows that the continual rebellions owe their origin to Zhang Rang and the Regular Attendants of the Inner Bureau, who act counter to all recognized precepts. Now to stop the ebullition of a pot the best way is to withdraw the fire; to cut out an abscess, though painful, is better than to nourish the evil. I have dared undertake a military advance on the capital, with thy permission, and now pray that Zhang Rang and the other eunuchs be removed for the happiness of the dynasty and of the empire."	» _fengxiao -- why are some of these highlited in this color » _LUDW4 -- answer -- because they are like poems or some thing » Speaker -- Color -- The text highlighted in this color means that it is a memorial or letter. If the text has a pink background it means it is a poem. » SkyAnimal -- Marching Armies -- It is like Ceaser marching his army across the Rubicon. You can't have a force approach the capital as that is seen as a desire to take it over. But with the pretense that he is going forth to secure the peace, then he will be allowed leeway. » Tiamatty -- Ebullition - Great word. -- Dong Zhuo just completely ruined He Jin's plan with that one memorial. He Jin wanted to keep it a secret, but Dong just publicly announced that he was heading to Luoyang to kill the Eunuchs. I wonder if Li Ru realized this, or if it was an accident. » cFodder -- Li Ru was Dong Zhuo's intellectual henchman... -- ...and for all the terrible excesses of Dong Zhuo, Li Ru never fails to give excellent advice throughout the novel. I think he's one of the more underrated political strategists in the novel - though a forgiveable oversight given his choice of master. As for the effect that was most certainly Li Ru's intention when he advised how to proceed. Throughout his time in the novel, Li Ru is always keenly aware of how events are unfolding around him - and whenever he makes a suggestion - the results are usually spectacular.
9 He Jin read this memorial and showed it to his partisans.
10 Then said Minister Zheng Tai, "A fierce wild beast: If he comes, his prey will be humans!"	» Pang Tong -- Foreshadowing -- Gotta love it. A great literary tool present through out the novel
11 He Jin replied, "You are too timorous: You are unequal to great schemes."
12 But Lu Zhi also said, "Long have I known this man. In appearance innocent, he is a very wolf at heart. Let him in, and calamity enters with him. Stop him, do not let him come, and thus will you avoid upheaval."	» Pang Tong -- So many people speak ill of him, you think there would be some truth in it. -- He Jin is gathering points to ROTK chief idiot award » HeroOfChaos -- Well... he WAS a butcher... -- so we can't expect him to be competent in governement matters, this was the problem in ancient China people were given high ranks just because of family.
13 He Jin was obstinate, and both Zheng Tai and Lu Zhi gave up their posts and retired, as did more than half the ministers of state, while He Jin sent a warm welcome to Dong Zhuo, who soon camped at Shengchi Lake and stationed there without further action.	» guanping -- He Jin you are a foooooool » Thwart -- He Jin is rather stupid -- How can you not notice what that bastard Dong Zhuo wants? » Melchiot -- Damn, he just lost more than half of his ministers of state; that is not a good sign. -- Unfortunately, not even this made him realise. Oh well, these things happen.
14 Zhang Rang and the eunuchs knew this move was directed against them and said, "This is He Jin's plot. If we do not strike first, our whole clans shall be exterminated."
15 So they hid a band of fifty armed ruffians at the Gate of Grand Virtue in the Palace of Happiness, where the Empress lived, then they went in to see her.	» GuanPing -- The names of the places at this point is rather sadly need renaming -- Virtue is not a word I would put with Empress He or the infamous ten. Palace of Happiness will soon see mass destruction and the final blow to the Han handed out. » Seraph -- Misnomers -- There is nothing more common to evil regimes than positive names. Orwell's dystopic novel 1984 has several examples of misnomers, where the owner tries to make something sound good when it's purpose is completely opposite; for example, the ministry of peace is in charge of running wars. Either that, or Gate of Grand Virtue just generally sounds better than Gate of Incredible Slimeballery. » Tiamatty -- Or Gate of Mediocre Design -- Grand Virtue at least sounds nice.
16 They said, "The General, feigning to act under command, has called up armies to the capital to destroy us. We pray you, Your Majesty, pity and save us!"
17 "Go to the General and confess your faults," said the Empress.
18 "If we did, then should we be cut to mincemeat! Rather summon the General into your presence and command him to cease. If he will not, then we pray but die in your presence."
19 Empress He issued the requisite command.
20 He Jin was just going to her when Secretary Chen Lin advised him not to enter, saying, "The eunuchs are certainly behind the order and mean your harm."
21 But He Jin could only see the command of the Empress and was oblivious to all else. Said he, "Clearly, this is an edict from the Empress. What harm?"	» guanping -- To be fair she was his sister -- Can he risk ignoring an Imperial order either?
22 "Our plot is no longer a secret," said Yuan Shao. "Still you may go if you are ready to fight your way in."
23 "Get the eunuchs out first!" said Cao Cao.
24 "Silly children!" said He Jin. "What can they do against the man who holds the forces of the empire in his palm?"	» guanping -- kill you maybe? » Pang Tong -- it is entirely possible that he will be killed...lol » HeroOfChaos -- What a dumbass! He thought he was untouchable just because he had high rank. » dgr81 -- silly children?! -- He called Shao and Cao... two of the (arguably) greatest men during the time... silly children?! » MaTseng -- dgr81, at the time cao cao was just a calvary commander... -- and yuan shao was probably just some officer who was only holding office because of his name.
25 Yuan Shao said, "If you will go, then we will come as a guard, just as a precaution."	» Thwart -- Well that's stupid. Why should they waste their time helping a moron? » Seraph -- I don't know -- Maybe they thought they were helping him fight the evil eunuchs and help save the Han. Just a guess, though. [/sarcasm] » Tiamatty -- Shao and Cao are both loyal Han retainers. -- They want the Eunuchs gone to save the dynasty. He Jin is their best chance at doing that, so they don't want to see him murdered. » chrisdalby -- Why did they help him? -- What gets me is this. Shao and Cao have put their backs out for He Jin. Why do they keep on helping him? Let the bugger die, then kill the eunuchs and Dong Zhuo.
26 Whereupon both Yuan Shao and Cao Cao chose five hundred best men under their command, at whose head they placed Yuan Shu, a brother of Yuan Shao. Yuan Shu, clad in mail, drew up his troops outside the Forbidden City's entrance, while Yuan Shao and Cao Cao, holding swords, went as escort.	» Laguna Cottage -- It is so touchy to see these guys work together. -- No wonder Cao Cao considers Yuan Shao one of his best friends. I believe Han Sui is also in this crowd, together with Xun Yu, Kong Rong, and of course Chen Lin. » darkknight -- cao cao -- from this you can see cao cao stands out as a great man and yuan shao to an extent, unlike he jin, who is a complete moron
27 When He Jin neared the Palace of Happiness, the officers from the Inner Bureau said, "The orders are to admit the Regent Marshal and none other."	» Pang Tong -- A lot of use the escort was
28 So the escort was detained outside. He Jin went in proudly. At the Gate of Grand Virtue, he was met by Zhang Rang and Duan Gui, and their followers quickly closed in around him. He Jin began to feel alarmed.	» Thwart -- What a genius -- NOW he finds there is something wrong! » guanping -- its a miracle -- I thought he wouldn't find out till they shouted "DIE" and stabbed him » DongDal -- Nah. I think that would have been a little too subtle for He Jin.
29 Then Zhang Rang in a harsh voice began to revile him: "What crime had Empress Dong committed that she should have been put to death? And when the Mother of the Country was buried, who feigned sickness and did not attend? We raised you and your paltry, huckstering family to all the dignity and wealth you have, and this is your gratitude! You would slay us. You call us sordid and dirty: Who is the cleaner?"	» VulpineHero -- Pride equals death. Arrogance equals death. Being exceptionally stupid equals death. » WUuuu -- What can you say, its a dangerous time » DragonAtma -- lol -- And the pot calls the kettle black. » TomMurch -- Life is cheap. -- Death, though, is completely free to all idiots, especially in such war stricken times.
30 He Jin was panic stricken and looked about for a way to escape, but all gates had been shut. The eunuchs closed him in, and then the assassins appeared and cut He Jin into halves.	» _fengxiao -- why was He Jin so stupid to go by himself -- he should have known that they would have killed him... » Banedon -- arrogance is cause of downfall -- He Jin in his arrogance did not believe that the eunuches were brave enough to attack him so near the Empress when he got so large an army backing him up. » theonlyone -- addition -- Ok, what difference would it make if he had an army backing him up? I mean, the gates would shut and he would still be by himself. Plus, what could the Empress do? Fight? One more thing - couldn't he like yell for help? » ZhangLiaoRulz -- your right Fengxiao -- right he should've listened to secretary Chen Lin » darkknight -- chen lin -- chen lin was a great writer of the time, i swear i saw some of his work on the net, so he must have been important. » Reboot -- Palaces -- It seemed most likely that He Jin was too far away for his shouts for help (if any) to be heard. Palaces tend to be very big... » Thwart -- Whoa... Cool! Cut into halves. I bet that hurt. » Seraph -- That sucks. But I must say, He Jin brought it on himself. -- If he had had half a brain, he would have realized he might need just a *little* more force than himself alone. Ironically, it seems he now inded does have half a brain.
31 Closing the days of the Hans, and the years of their rule were near spent, Stupid and tactless was He Jin, yet stood he highest in office, Many were they who advised him, but he was deaf as he heard not, Wherefore fell he a victim under the swords of the eunuchs.	» Tiamatty -- Burn. Not very complementary towards He Jin, is it? -- Even the book is calling him stupid, now. » guanping -- Indeed, the novel does not seem to like He Jin -- Despite controlling able men, the novel seems to try to say he made major mistakes and thus helped cuase the end of the Han. It certainly doesn't belive him fit to be Regent Marshall
32 So He Jin died. Yuan Shao and Cao Cao waited long. By and by, impatient at the delay, they called through the gate, "Thy carriage awaits, O General!"
33 For reply the head of He Jin was flung over the wall. A decree was proclaimed:	» VulpineHero -- Oh, how lovely... and stupid. -- They really could have done that much less insulting to a bored army. » JohnnyBlood -- Funny.... I think it would be funny if it hit Yuan Shao off his horse or something... -- or not, it might kill him, with He Jin's thick skull. » AnhTran -- This was one of the most moving part in the movie -- Their commander's head has been thrown out. Yuan Shao and Cao Cao enraged and rallied their men to charge through and killing everything that resisted. » TsaoWei -- Movie? -- When did they make a movie? Do you mean book? Or did the Romance manage to sneak a movie without me knowing? » DongDal -- They're making another one. -- It's going to be set during Chi Bi.
34 "He Jin has contemplated treachery and therefore has been slain! It pardons his adherents."	» Drunken Master -- answer -- Well, that's a nice... subtle answer... or something... » darkknight -- the eunuchs -- I'd like to see the eunuchs on "The Weakest Link" » theonlyone -- jeez, this sounds like the end of a game... "He Jin has been slain!" » Pang Tong -- he may be an idiot but he was not treacherous » DragonAtma -- Pang Tong: -- It depends. After all, he DID invite Dong Zhuo to the capital, complete with 200,000 soldiers. » Ragnarok -- And the only reason He Jin rose to a Regent Marshal... -- ...in the first place was because his sister was made pregnant by the Emperor.
35 Yuan Shao shouted, "The eunuchs have slain the High Minister. Let those who will slay this wicked party come and help me!"	» JiaGai -- This is one of Yuan Shao's (few) great moments. » darkknight -- yuan shao -- he was so good til he became powerful » LiaoHua -- Rulers -- It seems when people like Yuan Shao and He Jin suddenly gained power, they felt that nothing can stop them and therefore acted foolishly » JiaGai -- Yuan Shao didn't suddenly gain power. -- He was always powerful, from the very start. » rrwblack -- Yuan family -- Didnt his family pass down power to him? » JiaGai -- Yes. Yuan Shao was already the head of his family when he first shows up in the novel. » TomMurch -- Wasn't Yuan Shu the one who was corrupted by power? » DongDal -- I think so -- He became an abseloute git after getting the Imperial Seal. » WUuuu -- Yuan Shu was a complete git from his first introduction onward -- and the Yuan's are powerful from their introduction. The most powerful family early on besides maybe the He's.
36 Then one of He Jin's generals, Wu Kuang, set fire to the gate. Yuan Shu at the head of his guards burst in and fell to slaying the eunuchs without regard to age or rank. Yuan Shao and Cao Cao broke into the inner part of the Palace. Four of the eunuchs---Zhao Zhong, Cheng Kuang, Xia Yun, and Guo Sheng---fled to the Blue Flower Lodge where they were hacked to pieces. Fire raged, destroying the buildings.	» darkknight -- eunuchs -- how many would there have been? » Rahonavis -- Eunuchs are about 9:1 ratio (9 eunuchs to every 1 royalty) -- Figures differ from period to period. By the end of the Sung dynasty people were lining up to become Eunuchs because the power and wealth they held. At one stage there were about as many eunuch as there were Emperor's personal guards. (number in the thousands) Fortunately only very few gain enuf power and support to threaten the crown.
37 Four of the Ten Regular Attendants---Zhang Rang, Duan Gui, Cao Jie, and Hou Lan---led by Zhang Rang carried off the Empress, Emperor Bian, and Prince Xian of Chenliu toward the North Palace.	» SkyAnimal -- Extras -- Ever notice in Star Trek how the crew members who die first don't have names? That's where the term "red shirts" comes from, since they don't have names, they are just people who are around to take the bullets and show bloodshed occured. I find it funny how all these guys are named. » Flying Flash Swallow -- Names -- They name verybody in this book. Sometimes they go really in depth about his appearance and his weapon and then he dies the next paragraph. The art of the extra is obviously a new invention. » SkyAnimal -- Extras -- In "The Illiad," the way bards could recite such a long, detailed story was due to "devices" (ways things were said, in a certain order and pattern, allowing the bard to recite with greater ease). This tradition exists to this day in the Balkans, in fact. Curious how what the Chinese tradition is.
38 Lu Zhi, since he had resigned office, was at home, but hearing of the revolution in the Palace he donned his armor, took his spear, and prepared to fight.	» LordYuanShao -- That is my good old Lu Zhi ... always ready to serve the Empire until the end. » HeroOfChaos -- yeah. I like Lu Zhi's personnality too. he's very loyal
39 He saw Eunuch Duan Gui hurrying the Empress along and called out, "You rebel, how dare you abduct the Empress?"
40 The eunuch fled. The Empress leaped out of a window and was taken to a place of safety.
40 General Wu Kuang burst into one of the inner halls where he found He Miao, sword in hand.
42 "You also were in the plot to slay your own brother," cried Wu Kuang. "You shall die with the others!"	» Tempest -- Traitor? -- Where does it specifically say he was in the plot to kill his brother? I recall he was bribed to help the eunuchs escape death but this in itself is not being "in the plot to slay your own brother". » _Wu Han Tian -- Re:Traitor -- At think this is the point of the attack where everyone loses their heads (literally also, but I mean figuratively). He Miao is now being associated with the eunuchs. This fact is enough for a troop drunken with the wine of massacre to kill him as well. This basically shows that the army is starting to become chaotic and less discriminate. » Solace -- The rationale for Wu Kuang's action hardly matters -- the fact remains that He Miao did accept bribes from the eunuchs and thus weakened the empire. For that alone he deserved the death that he received. » HeroOfChaos -- re: The rationale for Wu Kuang's action hardly matters -- If all the people who accepted bribes from the eunuchs would have suffered the same fate as He Jin's brother, there would have an horrible amount of deaths that day. Don't get me wrong--He Jin's brother WAS an asshole and it's good riddance.
42 "Let us kill the plotter against his elder brother!" cried many.
44 He Miao looked around: His enemies hemmed him in on every side. He was hacked to pieces.	» AshanntuMeiLing -- nice words... -- The words "hacked to pieces" sounds very nice... (sarcasm) » DongDal -- Almost as nice as -- Castrated! :p » TomMurch -- This is a very bloody chapter so far. -- Why can't they solve their problems over a nice cup of tea? [or a banquet]
45 Yuan Shu bade his soldiers scatter and seek out all the families of the eunuchs, sparing none. In that slaughter many beardless men were killed in error.	» _anonymous -- beardless men? » _Mujdamasta -- i think beardless men refers to the eunuchs. -- The eunuchs were castrated at birth , and therefore did not have any pubic or facial hair » Yuan Shao -- Hahaha. But seriously, I think it means "guiltless" or "errorless". » _watermelon -- beardless man -- It was saying that many beardless men(not eunuchs) were killed by mistake, because they were mistaken as eunuchs » keysersoze324 -- beardless men -- I think beardless men just means men young enough that they had no beards yet. It says that the whole families of the eunuchs were destroyed, so they would've called every able fighting man to fight, even ones who were that young. » _anonymous -- Mr watermelon is correct... -- they mistakened beardless men as the seedless ones and killed them ... » _Wu Han Tian -- Compounding -- I believe both watermelon and keysersoze have hit the mark. "Beardless" suggest they are too young to grow a beard, and are thus innocent and guiltless toward the assasination of He Jin. » King Kolb -- Why were the eunuchs castrated? » _Sun_Astin -- I believe eunuchs were castrated because it was believed that it removed their emotions... -- which should have made them better servants. » _me -- so they were nutless. haha » _TheNovak -- King Kolb -- If they weren't castrated, they wouldn't be eunuchs :-P Really, though, it was so they could look after the Emporer's concubines without getting the urge to sample some of His Majesty's "wealth." Hence the ball-chopping. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Chop Chop -- They were cut off so they can serve the emperor better without having lusts to cloud their vision ^.^ » Super Dian Wei -- I guess it could be worse for them. -- At least they did the deed at birth, and not waited until they actually made it to the rank of eunuch. This way, they didn't really know what they were missing. » Explainer -- They are carefully selected... -- Most of the eunuchs are recruited when they are kids. Like Geisha, the eunuchs are highly trained, and castration is just one of the many disciplines, like the Navy SEALs train in extreme conditions. And like priests, the eunuchs can be sexually active if they choose. There are tales that some eunuchs had powerful court officials as their lovers. The eunuchs also raise family. Cao Cao, for example, is a grandchild of a eunuch. » ItalianLion -- Eh? -- How could a eunuch have a lover if....? Wait, do I want to know? 0.0 lol » Solace -- I can sympathize with the eunuchs now -- If I had been taken as a child and maimed as a service to the state, I should think that I would have very little loyalty for the empire either. Most likely I would do exactly as the eunuchs did, screw the empire over for my own personal gain. » guanping -- yeah they took my nuts, I get power and wealth... the state still owes the eunuchs a lot » jolteony -- Eunuchs -- Eunuchs were castrated so they would have sex with the royalties men concubines
46 Cao Cao set himself to extinguish the fires. He then begged Empress He to undertake the direction of affairs, and soldiers were sent to pursue Zhang Rang and rescue the young Emperor and the young Prince of Chenliu.	» Miliardo -- Who is the Prince of Chenliu? » laughlin -- Prince of Chenliu -- Emperor Ling's son by Lady Wang, raised by Empress Dowager Dong and named heir apparent. Referred to in Chapter 2 as "Liu Xian." » Heika -- "Hero" of Chaos? -- Here we see the calm, efficient side of Cao Cao's character: while the rest of the army was running around slaughtering innocent men by mistake, he set himself to begin repairing the damages.
47 Meanwhile, Zhang Rang and Duan Gui had hustled away the Emperor and the Prince. They burst through the smoke and fire and traveled without stopping till they reached the Beimang Hills. It was then the third watch. They heard a great shouting behind them and saw soldiers in pursuit. Their leader, Min Gong, a commander in Henan, was shouting, "Traitors, stop, stop!"	» SkyAnimal -- Third Watch -- I am not sure what time this refers to. But I am assuming this is night time. Think there are four watches during a day. There could be three. Whatever the case, it is night time, not midnight, though, since that is not addressed as a time. » Shokyo -- I think a watch is about two hours, so third watch would be around 6am o.o » yingchuan -- Ancient Chinese timing. -- There are 12 characters (after some communication with ancient Hindu, they got a corresponding animal each), each one indicates a period of two hours, the first one begins at 23:00. As for the night, there's another way. The night(19:00~5:00) is divided into five sections, each two hours long, called Jing. So the 3rd Jing/Watch is between 23:00 and 1:00, the midnight. There are some smaller subsections. In every city, there will be some bellmans(usually aged men, coz they need less sleeping and are more patient to do such a boring work), carrying a gong and another thing made of a sect of bamboo, with these two things and the coding (I'm not quit sure, possibly one beat of gong means one Jing, and one beat of the bamboo means one smaller section) they can report the time in the night, and their job also include watching over, raising the alarm when they see a thief, fire or some other thing. » Miliardo -- What animals do you mean? -- Obviously, there's no platypus jing, but would there be a rooster jing, a wolf jing, and a dog jing? What animals are we talking about here exactly?
48 Zhang Rang, seeing that he was lost, jumped into the river, where he was drowned.	» drunkmastrZhangFei -- stoopid -- Why'd he do that?!? Such a horrid way of dying drowning is. » JiaGai -- There are worse ways to die than drowning. -- Like getting boiled alive in oil. Or being hacked to pieces. I'm sure he would have suffered a pretty brutal fate either way. » Shokyo -- apparently drowning's quite a peaceful way to die. » ZhangLiaoRulz -- lol -- i think ill just stick to dying asleep ^.^ lol » toocold -- much worse -- a woman gets beat to death later, i would prefer drowning in that case. (thats not a spoiler is it?) » darkknight -- i heard someone in this book -- died of laughter (sima zhao i think) but this book suggests otherwise » RoboSSS -- Drowning isn't pleasant =x -- Seriously. Just because you aren't breathing, doesn't mean you're dead yet... And personally I don't like my chest feeling like it's gonna explode... But, that's just me O:-) » AshanntuMeiLing -- the worst ways to die are probably drowning and being burnt alive -- drowning is dead uncomfy and of course, burning would be severe agony!! And then there are slow deaths like being stabbed and then to die and bleed. » JoeYun -- crusifixion -- has been proved to be the most painful way to die, dunno how they proved it tho... » JiaGai -- Worse ways to die -- Drowning certainly sucks but it's not the worst by any stretch of the imagination. There are many torture methods that inflicted an ungodly amount of pain before death. Tell me the death of William Wallace was better than drowning. » Shokyo -- I have heard of an English King... -- He had a bit of a crappy reign; his family rebelled against him, for a start. I also know that um... well... it was a case of death by hot poker up the bum. » Super Dian Wei -- That probably wasn't a history book... I'm thinking an erotic novel.... -- *backs away from Shokyo* :D » Yunsung -- It was Edward the Second, Shokes. -- His wife and her lover rebelled against him, captured, tortured, and hot-pokered him. Then, they set up his son Edward the Third, and ruled in his name until he killed the lover. Mortimer, I think his name was. » Miliardo -- I'd say that crucifixion, and being hung without dying immediately are the worst two... -- followed by being swallowed by fire or a tidal wave, or eaten alive by sharks or cannibals.
49 The two boys ignorant of the meaning of all this confusion and terrified out of their senses, dared not utter a cry. They crept in among the rank grass on the river bank and hid. The soldiers scattered in all directions but failed to find them. So they remained till the fourth watch, shivering with cold from the drenching dew and very hungry. They lay down in the thick grass and wept in each other's arms, silently, lest anyone should discover them.	» SkyAnimal -- Young Boys -- In the book "Three Swans," it described how the son of a warlord (in 1920's China) could not even dress himself, nor tie his shoes. » Altaris -- Stupidity -- According to my mom, the last emperor of china didn't even know how to squeeze toothpaste out of its tube... stupid eh? » JiaGai -- Dependancy -- I don't know how true that story about the Emperor is, but face it, if you grow up, your entire life being pampered and having every need, no matter how insignificant, carried out for you, you're not going to develop into an independant human being. In that case, it shouldn't be surprising a man who has never had to fend for himself is incapable of doing so at all. » guanping -- Your rulers tend to be able to look after themselves if borders are insecure -- Some reason this didn't work in China but it did in England. Incomptent ones tended to die, not always by enemy hands » PanFeng -- It happens in China -- That's why so many civils wars broke out. You'd get a weak Emperor and someone else would try to assume power. Kind of its own way to filter out the weak. If the force was strong enough to resist, then it proved it was fit to rule.
50 "This is no a place to stay in," said Prince Xian. "We must find some way out."	» jolteony -- lol -- Prince Xian was younger than his brother 4 years, i think, and hes assuming the command
50 So the two children knotted their clothes together and managed to crawl up the bank. They were in a thicket of thorn bushes, and it was quite dark. They could not see any path. They were in despair when, all at once, millions of fireflies sprang up all about them and circled in the air in front of the Emperor.
52 "God is helping us," said Prince Xian.	» ManicManchu -- um, aren't the chinese supposed to be buddist? » JiaGai -- Not all Chinese are buhddist. -- In fact, I'm not even sure if Buhddism made inroads into China at this time. Most people would be Confucian or Taoist, during this era, and the Chinese believed in a bevy of gods. » Shokyo -- Plus, God's a bit of a general term, right? » JiaGai -- In this case, yes, you're probably right. -- It would be just a variation of "Heaven smiles upon us" or whatever. » WUuuu -- Is this the only spot "God"... -- and not "gods" are mentioned? I believe so but anyone else remember another place? Maybe a translation error from "heaven" » Laguna Cottage -- Ancient Chinese notion of heaven is just like another imperial world... -- where the highest god is the emperor, and other gods his officials. Unlike Greek mythology, this Supreme Emperor is quite weak. But his officers are powerful gods, and they listen to him. Some would rebel like the Monkey God (read "Journey to the West"), but they would be defeated by the strong gods like Buddha. The Hell King is also one of Supreme Emperor's officials. You can imagine people have written many colorful stories about this heaven, because it is exactly the same as our world. When they talk about God, they are talking about the Supreme Emperor. When they talk about heaven, they are talking about his court.
52 They followed whither the fireflies led and gradually got into a road. They walked till their feet were too sore to go further, when, seeing a heap of straw near the road, they crept to it and lay down.
53 This heap of straw was close to a farm house. In the night, as the farmer was sleeping, he saw in a vision two bright red suns drop behind his dwelling. Alarmed by the portent, he hastily dressed and went forth to look about him. Then he saw a bright light shooting up from a heap of straw. He hastened thither and then saw two youths lying behind it.
54 "To what household do you belong, young gentlemen?" asked the farmer.
56 The Emperor was too frightened to reply, but his companion said, "He is the Emperor. There was a revolution in the Forbidden City, and we ran away. I am his brother, Prince of Chenliu."
57 The farmer bowed again and again and said, "My name is Cui Yi. My brother Cui Lie is the former Minister of the Interior. My brother was disgusted with the behavior of the eunuchs and so resigned and hid away here."
57 The two lads were taken into the farm, and their host on his knees served them with refreshment.
58 It has been said that Min Gong had gone in pursuit of Eunuch Duan Gui. By and by Min Gong overtook Duan Gui and cried, "Where is the Emperor?"
59 "He disappeared! I do not know where he is!"
61 Min Gong slew Duan Gui and hung the bleeding head on his horse's neck. Then he sent his troops searching in all directions, and he rode off by himself on the same quest. Presently he came to the farm. Cui Yi, seeing what hung on his horse's neck, questioned him and, satisfied with his story, led him to the Emperor. The meeting was affecting. All were moved to tears.	» SkyAnimal -- Horses -- The terra cota statues dug up around the Imperial Tomb in China are the lifelike representation of the actual horses. They are rather small animals, with distinctive body features. The idea behind breeding was not in full effect at this time, and the Chinese horses were smaller beasts of burden. Also, you could not put too much of a load on a horse, nor ride it fast for very far. » darkknight -- just out of interest -- was it shi huangdi who built the terra cotta army and wu di who built the wall of china. » jimmyli -- The bigger horses came from Central Asia. -- Qin Shi Huang had the Terra Cotta Army and built the Great Wall. » dgr81 -- qin vs han -- yeah, different time period. during Qin times, they still fought with chariots, not cavalry.
61 "The state cannot be without its ruler," said Min Gong. "I pray Your Majesty return to the city."
63 At the farm they had but one sorry nag and this they saddled for the Emperor. The young Prince was taken on Min Gong's charger. And thus they left the farm. Not beyond one mile from the farm, they fell in with other officials and several hundred guards and soldiers made up an imposing cavalcade. In the cavalcade were Wang Yun, Minister of the Interior; Yang Biao, Grand Commander; Chunyu Qiong, Commander of the Left Army; Zhao Meng, Commander of the Right Army; Bao Xin, Commander of the Rear Army; and Yuan Shao, Commander of the Center Army. Tears were shed freely as the ministers met their Emperor.	» guanping -- Why not give the Emperor the charger? Wouldn't he look grander than on a nag?
63 A man was sent on in front to the capital there to expose the head of Eunuch Duan Gui.
65 As soon as they could, they placed the Emperor on a better steed and the young Prince had a horse to himself. Thus the Emperor returned to Luoyang, and so it happened after all as the street children's ditty ran:	» Yorak -- Children's dittys -- We see these throughout the novel. To listen to them, it seems that the street children always had keener and more accurate views on political situations than the people in the court... » Laguna Cottage -- Interesting... -- Seeing that politicians are often jailed or beheaded in this period for saying the wrong thing, I think the children are freer to express themselves without getting punished. They can praise heroes and curse evil people in their songs. Who compose those songs, now that's the issue. » Solace -- Children's Dittys -- I should imagine that children did not sing about current affairs but rather these ditty's became popular among the children long after the actual events. It's like as children we sang "London bridges falling down" or "Ring around the rosie", we were not there to witness the events which spawned these rhymes but the events are a part of our cultural history. » AshanntuMeiLing -- ring-a-ring-a-rosies -- was one song made during the plague in the 17th century, i cant remember wat the line "ring-a-ring-a-rosie" meant but i do know that "a pocket full of posies" would have been the herbs that people would have used to "purify the air around them". the "atishoo, atishoo, we all fall down" bit would have been when u get the illness and die. » Yunsung -- The "Ring around the rosies" were the boils gotten from the plague. -- Basically, you had a painful boil with an itchy ring around it. Not fun. » Tiamatty -- Ring-Around-the-Rosy -- Actually, there's strong evidence to suggest it was not made about the plague. For one thing, the first recorded reference of it was in 1881, even though children's rhymes had been collected and recorded centuries before that. For another thing, there are many different variants of the rhyme, many of which completely omit any possible reference to the plague. For example, Ring a ring a rosie A bottle full of posie All the girls in our town Ring for little Josie. There are a lot of other variants, equally innocent, all of which were compiled within a few years of each other. ALSO, explanations of the meanings of the sections of the rhyme differ, depending on who you ask. ALSO, the first known mention of a plague interpretation was in 1961, meaning it had been going around for centuries before anyone caught on to the "real" meaning of the rhyme. Chances are, it's an innocent little rhyme with no real meaning. Just a nonsensical collection of words, not unlike the Beatles' "I Am the Walrus". » Yunsung -- That's really quite interesting.
66 Though the emperor doesn't rule, though the prince no office fills, Yet a brilliant cavalcade comes along from Beimang Hills.	» _Wu Han Tian -- In Other Words -- In other words, the emporer has become a figurehead, not a position of political power, Yes? » _Shige -- Emporer -- The emperor, I believe, was yet too young for the responsibility of the role - thus retainers would act in his place. There is also the point that, while the post carries the Last Word as it were, the Emperor has never had any 'real' power in affairs of state...sort of. Not easy to explain that...it's kinda like the British Monarchy - they still get asked if things can happen, but have nothing to do with the actual running of the country. » Alagithil -- Why the hey are the street children so... darn... cosmopolitan! -- Why aren't they forming makeshift Han era hip-hop bands? » HeroOfChaos -- Han era hip-hop -- the answer to your question is simple: cuz hip-hop sucks... » Seraph -- Those street kids sure do seem to know what's going on. -- If I were a ruler I'd drop some of my advisors and just listen to the street children. » AshanntuMeiLing -- i agree. seraph, ur right... -- i mean, how the hell would all these kids know about whats going on if there were no TVs or newspapers back then? Only mere rumours and stories. » JoeYun -- the kids probably pieced together what rumours they had heard... -- and on the occasions that they were right everybody noticed and remembered; they were probably wrong frequently and so no one cared or noticed
66 The cavalcade had not proceeded far when they saw coming towards them a large body of soldiers with fluttering banners hiding the sun and raising a huge cloud of dust. The officials turned pale, and the Emperor was greatly alarmed. Yuan Shao rode out in advance.
68 "Who are you?" said Yuan Shao.
68 From under the shade of an embroidered banner rode out a leader, saying, "Do you have the Emperor?"
69 The Emperor was too panic stricken to respond, but the Prince of Chenliu rode to the front and cried, "Who are you?"
70 "Dong Zhuo, Imperial Protector of Xizhou Region."
71 "Have you come to protect the Chariot or to steal it?" said Prince Xian.	» _darklord -- post -- Wait how come if the prince and the emperor don't have any power they just question Dong Zhuo, and he responds. does he really have to answer to the emperor? i mean he is just gonna take the capital anyway. » Yorak -- Dong Zhuo -- The prince and the emperor do have some power, in that they're powerful symbols. Dong Zhuo, at this point, can't move openly against them; he needs them to use as figureheads. By claiming to protect them, he gains Han authority, and a degree of legitimacy.
73 "I have come to protect," said Dong Zhuo.	» guanping -- Very funny -- or maybe he meant it at the time?
74 "If that is so, the Emperor is here: Why do you not dismount?"	» TheYellowDwarf -- And here it is, Emperor Xian's best moment. -- How can you not like a nine-year-old (royalty or not) who stands up to the most powerful person across the land? » ChangZilong -- Well, he wasn't exactly the best border general -- We saw his failure against the Scarves, and I believe that the Liang region was safer because of Ma Teng or Han Sui rather than Dong Zhuo
75 Dong Zhuo hastily dismounted and made obeisance on the left of the road. Then Prince Xian spoke graciously to him. From first to last the Prince had carried himself most perfectly so that Dong Zhuo in his heart admired his behavior, and then arose the first desire to set aside the Emperor in favor of the Prince of Chenliu.
75 They reached the Palace the same day, and there was an affecting interview with Empress He.
77 But when they had restored order in the Palace, the Imperial Hereditary Seal, the special seal of the Emperor, was missing.	» guanping -- good sign... new emp... a rebellion in the forbidden city and losing the seal... poor guy » Pang Tong -- Symbolic -- The seal is the very emperor himself » ZhaoZilongfan -- Not having it in possession symbolizes the end of your dynasty
78 Dong Zhuo camped without the walls, but every day he was to be seen in the streets with an escort of mailed soldiers so that the common people were in a state of constant trepidation. He also went in and out of the Palace careless of all the rules of propriety.	» SkyAnimal -- Soldiers -- He's keeping the peace in a time of chaos. Having the soldiers roam the city streets keeps order. Sounds like a good thing at this time. » Flying Flash Swallow -- Hmmm... -- Sounds to me like vicious martial law... » VulpineHero -- Dong Zhuo's Actions -- This paragraph emphasizes on Dong Zhuo's lack of respect. He walks through the streets with a full escort of soldiers, frightening the public, and obeys none of the rules set within the Palace.
78 Commander of the Rear Army Bao Xin spoke of Dong Zhuo's behavior to Yuan Shao, saying, "This man harbors some evil design and should be removed."
80 "Nothing can be done till the government is more settled," said Yuan Shao.
81 Then Bao Xin saw Minister of the Interior Wang Yun and asked what he thought.	» Pang Tong -- Wang Yun -- Now there is a man with integrity...
81 "Let us talk it over," was the reply.
82 Bao Xin said no more but he left the capital and retired to the Taishan Mountains.
84 Dong Zhuo induced the soldiers of the two brothers He Jin and He Miao to join his command, and privately spoke to his adviser Li Ru about deposing the Emperor in favor of the Prince of Chenliu.
84 "The government is really without a head. There can be no better time than this to carry out your plan. Delay will spoil all. Tomorrow assemble the officials in the Wenming Garden and address them on the subject. Put all opponents to death, and your prestige is settled."
85 So spoke Li Ru, and the words pleased Dong Zhuo mightily.
86 So the next day Dong Zhuo spread a feast and invited many guests. As all the officers went in terror of him, no one dared be absent. Dong Zhuo himself rode up to the garden last of all and took his place with his sword girded on. When the wine had gone round several times, Dong Zhuo stopped the service and the music and began to speak.
87 "I have something to say. Listen quietly all of you!"
89 All turned towards him.	» _zhou_tai_fanatic -- he's got power » Reboot -- politics and might -- With all the chaos before this, and adding more trooops to his own, I would imagine Dong Zhuo now has by far the biggest army behind him in the capital. That fact alone lends him a lot of influence here. » iamnick -- does he? -- As a single man, he may have more men directly under his control. I don't know for sure, but wouldn't the army still loyal to the Emperor be larger? Right now, who is in control of the imperial army? » JiaGai -- And who is in control of the Emperor? » Melchiot -- Reply -- At the moment, no-one. Though it's an ideal time for someone to take advantage of the situation, and Dong Zhuo is about to show us. » Shokyo -- Then he is vunerable -- If you look at it from a certain perspective, then someone is in control; it's just down to whoever happens to snatch the chance. » YinWei -- I think that the soldiers from Dong Zhuo's army were recruited from where he was in control. -- Xi Liang area maybe. Thus, the soldiers would be loyal to him.
90 "The emperor is lord of all. If he lacks dignity and behaves in an unseemly manner, he is no fitting inheritor of the ancestral prerogatives. He who is now on the throne is a weakling, inferior to the Prince of Chenliu in intelligence and love of learning. The Prince is in every way fitted for the throne. I desire to depose the Emperor and set up the Prince in his place. What think you?"
90 The assembly listened in perfect silence, none daring at first to utter a word of dissent. But one dared; for suddenly a guest stood up in his place, smote the table and cried.
91 "No! No! Who are you that you dare utter such bold words? The Emperor is son of the late Emperor and has done no wrong. Why then should he be deposed? Are you a rebel?"
92 The speaker was Ding Yuan, Imperial Protector of Bingzhou.
93 Dong Zhuo glared at Ding Yuan, roaring, "There is life for those who are with me, death for those against!"
95 Dong Zhuo drew his sword and made for the objector. But the watchful Li Ru had noticed standing behind Ding Yuan a particularly dangerous looking henchman of his, who was now handling his halberd threateningly, and whose eyes were blazing with anger.	» duybui -- hahahaha » _MaChao -- How tall was Lu Bu? I'd imagine he's a pretty imposing fellow. » King Kolb -- Believe it or not I've heard that has was like 5'6 or something. -- He was tall in comparison to the others I guess » _Shige -- Lu Bu -- I don't think his actual stature had much to do with why he was such a scary SOB - I think he was just kinda...well...hard, really. ;O) » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Lu Bu -- Heard the onlything that made him strong was his suicide wish but he didn't have the guts to do it himself so he charged maniacally into battle o.o Kind of like Mussilini! » Shokyo -- Mussilini didn't commit suicide. He was hung in the streets on meat hooks with his mistress. » JiaGai -- Suicidal Lu Bu -- I'd still LOVE to hear how you know Lu Bu was a suicidal maniac. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, I've ever read about him during his time in the novel does it even come close to suggesting he was suicidal. » SkyAnimal -- Suicidal Lu Bu -- Berserkers carried no armor into battle, just a sword or an axe. What made them so fierce was their utter lack of fear in the face of battle and death. That will carry far in a battle, if you have no fear of death and are willing to put everything into a battle. » SkyAnimal -- Weapons? -- Why is this guy armed at this feast? If Dong Zhuo is trying to snake out who is against him, why did he let guys go armed to his dinner? For that matter, why would any of these guys be armed in the imperial gardens (other then Dong Zhuo, of course). » ScottieTheNerd -- Guards -- My guess is that the lords at least had some kind of bodyguard. After all, their superiors got backstabbed. I'd hate to be anyone who comes across Ding Yuan's bodyguard. » LiaoHua -- Banquets -- Many important people were killed or had been plotted against at banquets so this was definately a good idea to bring a bodyguard » DustAndShadow -- Western vs. Eastern philosphy -- Compare the great warriors of two great traditions, Lu Bu of the the 3k era, and lets say the Odin-worshipping Berserks, as mentioned above. The Odin cult saw only pleasure and the temporary frenzy of battle as temporary escapes from fate, fleeting pleasure from a god destined to fail. Their strength came from this frenzy, their detachment from their own lives and their adherence to the cause of battle. Lu Bu, however, later proves that he desires life, and the pleasures of this world. He is methodic and strategic, he has style to offset his strength. It is tough to compare Lu Bu, whose Lunar Spear had 36 moves, with Thor, whose hammer basically smashed things, because of the inherent differences in philosophies. » ChaoYun -- Understatement, -- Saying LuBu is "particularly Dangerous" is like saying ZhugeLiang is a "pretty clever guy" isn't it? LuBu was a total monster in battle, i mean, i know they're trying to bring him in slowly but sheez! » Yunsung -- Well... You don't know yet how good he is. -- If you just barge in and say he's awesome, well... Total thematic no-no. You have to be introduced first, then you can believe all of the incredible qualities attributed to them. » ChaoYun -- Of course, -- i said that they're trying to bring him in slowly, but, having already read the book, looking back at it, it does look kinda like an understatement, if you see what i mean,
96 So Li Ru hastily interposed, saying, "But this is the banquet chamber, and state affairs should be left outside. The matters can be fully discussed tomorrow."
96 His fellow guests persuaded Ding Yuan to leave, and after his departure Dong Zhuo said, "Is what I said just and reasonable?"
97 "You are mistaken, Illustrious Sir," said Lu Zhi. "Of old Emperor Tai Jia of the Shang Dynasty was unenlightened. Wherefore the sage Minister Yi Yin immured him in the Tong Palace till he reformed. Later the Prince of Changyi ascended the throne, and in twenty-seven days he committed more than three thousand categorical faults. Wherefore Regent Marshal Huo Guang declared in the ancestral temple that the Prince of Changyi was deposed. Our present Emperor is young, but he is intelligent, benevolent, and wise. He has not committed a single fault. You, Sir, are an imperial protector of a frontier region and not a metropolitan official and have had no experience in state administration. Neither have you the pure intentions of Yi Yin and Huo Guang which qualified their actions. The Teacher said: 'Only with Yi Yin's purpose can one act like Yi Yin. Otherwise, such a deed is treason.'"	» Explainer -- Yi Yin and Huo Guang -- Yi Yin was was helper and prime minister of King Tang, the founder of Shang Dynasty. After King Tang's death, Yi Yin served his sons and grandson. Soon after Tai Jia, King Tang's grandson, ascended the throne, he committed many faults, and Yi Yin, acting as regent, exiled Tai Jia to Tong Palace---the burial place of King Tang. Three years later, Yi Yin returned him the throne. Tai Jia eventually became an enlightened emperor. Shang Dynasty lasted for 650 years (BC 1700-1050). It was this act of Yi Yin rather than his services in building up an empire that has made him immortal. Whether he did right in temporarily dethroning the king was open to question, until a final verdict was rendered by Mencius who thought that his ends amply justified his means. This historical event attests the extent of the power exercised by a prime minister in those days. Huo Guang (BC ?-68) a general and regent of Han. After Emperor Wu (Liu Che) died, Huo Guang became regent to three successive emperors, and the second one had been the Prince of Changyi, who was on the throne for only twenty-seven days. Huo Guang had the Prince of Changyi declared unfit to rule and deposed him. Even though Huo Guang contributed much to the empire's stabilization, after he died, he was distanced by the emperor and most of his family were executed for conspiracy charges.
99 Dong Zhuo angrily drew his sword to slay the bold Lu Zhi, but two other officials remonstrated.	» drunkmastrZhangFei -- Dong Zhuo -- Wow he's more of a hot head than Zhang Fei o.o » Ragnarok -- Zhang Fei had a temper when intoxicated. -- He wasn't a vicious brute like Dynasty Warriors portrays him. Dong Zhuo however, is a hot-head. When met with an intelligent argument, he turns to the sword. He's pathetic. » darkknight -- the thing with dong zhuo is he cannot take a political argument: he gets too bitchy. » JiaGai -- Dong Zhuo -- What Dong Zhuo did was intimidate and bully everyone around him. Dong was not an idiot, but he realized that force could be a very effective means to control others around him. It's an interesting balancing act, ultimately. You have to inflict enough fear to subjugate a man, but too much will cause them to rebel. » darkknight -- fear -- that's how Sun Tzu kept order, it's a double-edged sword, because people may rebel, but on the other hand the discipline would be good » LiaoHua -- Bully -- I bet if Dong Zhuo was in school he'd be a big bully » Shokyo -- REALLY big » Ragnarok -- I couldn't diagree more DarkKnight. -- Armies can be lead through fear, but when the criticial moment comes, and the army begins to lose. What do the men do? They turn and flee because theres nothing left to stop them. Sun Tzu states that he leads through discipline, yet kindness. So his soldiers would stand by him till death. Look at the battle of Leuctra. The Spartans were killed, and tens of thousands of allied soldiers left the field giving their victory to the Thebans. With all due respect. You are wrong. Armies cannot be lead effectively through fear, and Sun Tzu did NOT rule with fear. » WUuuu -- Armies can be lead effectively through fear and often are -- The idea is to make you fear your commander more than the enemy, so this way when its a choice of going forward against the enemy or retreating and facing your commander, you go forward, even unto death. This is how the bully seargent was created. The bully has you fear him, the compassionate leader has you willing to die for him (or his cause) so either way they have you going forward. » Ragnarok -- You've missed the point. -- Sure, they can. But look at my example with Leuctra. Put it this way, you're fighting a losing battle. Who would you rather have at your side. Some guy you'd previously hit and forced into battle, or some guy who loves you and is prepared to stand by until death? An even bettter example. Look at Kublai Khan. After his defeats whilst trvalleling to Japan, his empire collapsed knowing Mongolia had lost their first battle. Liu Bei's followers stuck by him even in the worst of situations, following him through Chang Ban. Fear is the worst way to lead an army. And Sun Tzu's book would back me up all the way. » WUuuu -- Sun Tzu might back you up -- But his way isn't the only way. It can be quite effective running and army through fear. It can be done very effeciently, but your people really have to fear you for it to work. The guy fears you more than the enemy he'll stick by you until the end, just so as not to incur your wrath. Soviet Russia in WWII is the best example I can think of off the top of my head, though there are others. » nlink -- Actually, Soviet Russia may not really be the best example. -- The way the Soviets carried out war in WWII cannot be described as really effective nor efficient. The Russians used fear to force their soldiers to war. Those who tried to retreat were shot by their own commanders. Russian recruits were actually forced into battle at gunpoint by a trailing officer. Now, is it very efficient or effective to use your own soldiers to regulate each other or have all of them be fighting the same enenmy? The Russians' use of fear in their armies resulted in them having an enormous amount of casualties. They won through sheer numbers, not through effective management of their armies through fear. A soldier fighting because of fear will oftentimes opt to flee at the first chance he gets. A soldier fighting for a cause will oftentimes do so to the death. Also fear promotes betrayal. (Example: Zhang Fei). And that's not a very effective for an army. » Shokyo -- If I'm thinking of the right Russia... -- The reason I think of Stalin is coz of the way he died; he was in his room and he had a stroke. He couldn't speak, he couldn't move and he couldn't understand anyone. He stayed that way for days, and a load of his staff came to see how he was. They knocked on his door and when he didn't answer they assumed he wanted to be left alone and went. But since he couldn't speak, he couldn't let them know. They were so afraid of him they didn't check to see if he was OK. And who says karma isn't real? :) » Reboot -- Sun Tzu and Discipline -- I do not recall Sun Tzu (in his Art of War) using fear as the primary tool to instill discipline in war. His emphasis was on the rigid conduct of discipline/punishment, not the use of fear to instill loyalty. » guanping -- Stalin -- there is or was a theory going around that the servants knew something was wrong and that he needed a doctor; however they delibratly delayed till they thought Stalin couldn't be saved, and then called for one. I think that fear only goes so far... » Yunsung -- Fear is the most effective weapon a commander has, if used correctly. -- A good example was when Sun Tzu was asked to train the Emperor's concubines for battle within an hour. The concubines treated it like a big joke, so Sun Tzu drew his sword and beheaded one of them. He was then able to teach the concubines battle techniques in ten minutes. Fear may not have been the most oft used weapon in Sun Tzu's arsenal, but he knew it's effectiveness. Don't downplay it, just because it wasn't used often. And don't doubt it's effectiveness, just because an unskilled wielder may be destroyed by it. » ZhaoZilongfan -- About Zhang Fei -- Historically, Zhang Fei was smart enough to debate military strategy with intelligence. (ex: he outwitted Guan Yu in debate by quoting Sun Tzu) » PesssimstByNature -- Sun Tzu -- In my opinion, that wasn't using fear, that was using discipline. He had to show them that he was being serious. » IloveNDfootball -- About Conscripts -- The Germans did that too. It never worked, as under fire, when the man forcing them into battle died, the soldiers would run out and surrender. Some would kill the NCO themselves. » DongDal -- Sun Tzu -- Sun Tzu does state that rigid discipline is needed but kindness needs to be shown or you're in deep brown smelly stuff. » Tiamatty -- Command by fear -- Fear is the least reliable tool of control. You have to walk a fine line between keeping people too afraid to challenge you, without oppressing them so their anger outweights their fear. Few tyrants die natural deaths; more often they're killed by revolts.
100 "Minister Lu Zhi is the cynosure of the whole country, and his violent death would stir the hearts of all people!" said Court Counselors Cai Yong and Peng Bo.	» HeroOfChaos -- Cai Yong -- Isnt he supposed to have retired to his country house because of the eunuchs, or did he come back after they had been killed? » guanping -- I think he came back after they got killed » TsaoWei -- He's obviously here now -- So I guess he did.
100 Dong Zhuo then stayed his hand.
101 Then said Wang Yun, "A great question like the deposition and substitution of emperors is not one to be decided after a wine party. Let it be put off till another time."
103 So the guests dispersed. Dong Zhuo stood at the gate with drawn sword watching them depart. Standing thus, Dong Zhuo noticed a spearman galloping to and fro on a fiery steed and asked Li Ru who that was.
104 "That is Lu Bu, the adopted son of Ding Yuan. You must keep out of his way, my lord."	» _Eric -- post -- Finally, Lu Bu is here. » darkknight -- yeah finally -- it's been ages.... a whole 3 chapters! » farrington -- Lü Bu -- Not to be pedantic, but isn't the pinyin Lü Bu? The Moss Roberts translation gets it right. » Explainer -- Yeah, we thought about it. At the end, we ventured to simplify all names to English alphabet. -- There are a few reasons. We don't want to complicate things for beginning English readers. The English language incorporates many foreign words that has ç, é, ô, etc. All of them become c, e, o, etc. in this edition. Another reason is this online edition has an audio feature. Early speech engines tended to stumble on words that are not in their dictionary.
104 Dong Zhuo went inside the gate so that he could not be seen. But next day they reported to him that Ding Yuan had come out of the city with a small army and was challenging to a battle. Dong Zhuo, with his army, went forth to accept the challenge. And the two armies were drawn up in proper array.
106 Lu Bu was a conspicuous figure in the forefront. His hair was arranged under a handsome headdress of gold, and he had donned a embroidered thousand-flower fighting robe, a pheasant-tailed helmet, and breast plate, and round his waist was a gleaming jade belt with a lion's head clasp. With spear set he rode close behind his master Ding Yuan.	» _Volken -- Helmet -- It says nothing in here about those weird antlers and the fact that he wears purple. And i think, in the game, that he has a jewel in the middle of his head. Odd. » JiaGai -- Antlers? -- Lu Bu wears no antlers. In Dynasty Warriors, those "antlers" are the pheasant tails he wears in his helmet. Pheasants are a kind of game bird with long tail feathers and that's reflected in his DW character design. » Super Dian Wei -- The game does tend to exagerate things a bit. -- For example, it says that Dian Wei carried an axe, when really (despite one scene) he carried HUGE twin spears. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- games -- All games over exagerate things, like one general can't kill 550 men in one day by himself.... Come on.... Really.... » Shokyo -- Well, for a start there's not that many to kill anyway... -- especially not with fans (sorry, Qiao sister fan...) » AkiraJiao -- Just as likely that Sun Ce can kill over 600 with his tonfa... -- or Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang with their fans » DongDal -- Or Zhen Ji with a flute. :) » Doozer -- Actually, in some old-style drawing of this period... -- Lu Bu has those pheasent feathers in his headdress. The drawings are printed in a version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms that I own.
106 Ding Yuan, riding forth, pointing his finger at Dong Zhuo, began to revile him.
108 "Unhappy indeed was this state when the eunuchs became so powerful that the people were as if trodden into the mire under their feet. Now you, devoid of the least merit, dare to talk of deposing the rightful emperor and setting up another. This is to desire rebellion and no less!"	» chrisdalby -- Go Ding Yuan! Go Ding Yuan! It's nice to see someone stand up to that bastard, Dong Zhuo.
109 Dong Zhuo could not reply for Lu Bu, eager for the fight, rode straight at him. Dong Zhuo fled and Ding Yuan's army came on. The battle went in Ding Yuan's favor, and the beaten troops retired ten miles and made another camp. Here Dong Zhuo called his officers to a council.	» IWillWin -- Dong Zhuo = coward -- I can't believe how much of a coward Dong Zhuo is. If he was just going to run away, he could have at least saved himself the humiliation and not accepted Ding Yuan's challenge. » Ragnarok -- Not at all. -- A keen spirit is everything. Dong Zhuo had not accounted for Lu Bu. The sight of him charging turned the tide of the battle. What can panic-stricken soldiers do against a hardened warrior, furious and ready to fight? » Altaris -- "What can panic-stricken soldiers do against a hardened warrior, furious and ready to fight?" -- They could shoot him chock full of arrows. » Laguna Cottage -- The problem is they no longer have the initiative. -- When the leaders run, the whole army run. We rarely see an army rally on its own. Leaders make the authority center; without an authority center, the whole army would disagree, argue, and disperse - they would not fight even a small organized enemy.
110 "This Lu Bu is a marvel," said Dong Zhuo. "If he were only on my side, I would defy the whole world!"	» Solace -- true to his word -- if nothing good can be said about Dong Zhuo, you can say this; with Lu Bu at his side he did exactly as he claimed he would. » Patricoo -- True. Such a great line. » TomMurch -- There is, however, a difference between defying the world and getting away with it...
110 At this a man advanced saying, "Be content, O my lord! I am a fellow villager of his and know him well: He is valorous, but not crafty; he will let go principles, when he sees advantages. With this little, blarneying tongue of mine, I can persuade him to put up his hands and come over to your side."
111 Dong Zhuo was delighted and gazed admiringly at the speaker. It was Li Su, a general in the Imperial Tiger Army.
112 "What arguments will you use with him?" asked Dong Zhuo.
114 "You have a fine horse, Red Hare, one of the best ever bred. I must have this steed, and gold and pearls to win his heart. Then will I go and persuade him. He will certainly abandon Ding Yuan's service for yours."	» Alagithil -- Enter Red Hare. -- The thousand li a day horse. Owned by worthy lords. 7 feet tall.
114 "What think you?" said Dong Zhuo to his adviser Li Ru.
116 "One cannot grudge a horse to win an empire," was the reply.	» Solace -- Li Ru -- damn the man had a way with words. Such a simple statement that speaks volumes. » Manji -- Grudge -- "One cannot grudge a horse to win an empire"? Isn't that a translation error, shouldn't it be "One cannot judge a horse to win an empire?" » JiaGai -- No, the phrase is accurate. -- It simply means that one cannot be bothered by sacrificing a single horse when there is an empire to be gained in the process. » ChaoYun -- Li Ru -- I agree Solace, he could probably get a homeless person to buy double glazing with the way he could use his words. And for the record, thats a pretty damn good line all by itself. Doesn't even need to be relevant to the story; it's a simple tip for all to look at the bigger picture.
117 So they gave Li Su what he demanded---a thousand ounces of gold, ten strings of beautiful pearls, a jeweled belt, and Red Hare---and these accompanied Li Su on his visit to his fellow villager.	» SNDiablos -- In today's terms that is A LOT OF MONEY. -- Put it this way 1 ounce of gold id worth around $400 nowadays, so imagine 1,000 ounces times $400 dollars. Plus ten strings of beautiful pearls worth probably more than 50,000 dollars nowadays. A jeweled bealt worth most likely around $400,000, and then you got Red Hare worth at least a $1,000,000.
118 Li Su reached the camp and said to the guard, "Please tell General Lu Bu that a very old friend has come to visit him."
118 He was admitted forthwith.
119 "Worthy brother, have you been well since we last met?" greeted Li Su while bowing.
121 "How long it is since we last saw each other!" replied Lu Bu, bowing in return. "And where are you now?"
122 "I am a general in the Imperial Tiger Army. When I learned you were a strong supporter of the Throne, I could not say how I rejoiced. I have come now to present to you a really fine horse, a three-hundred-mile-a-day horse, one that crosses rivers and goes up mountains as if they were the level plain. Its name is Red Hare. It will be a fitting aid to your valor."	» SkyAnimal -- Running Distance -- A soldier trained to cover 1,000 miles running, covering fifty miles each day. He did this by running in the morning, taking a break, then running further that afternoon. I am in decent shape (nothing as impressive as that guy) and ran almost 8 miles in an hour, at a steady pace (not racing at all, and slowing down to allow for certain discomforts at times). So an unlaiden, trained man can cover 8 miles in an hour, run maybe 3 hours and cover a little over 20 miles, and if he did that all day, maybe 60 miles. I think a horse, carrying a man and nothing else, can cover around 100 a day. And this is due to the fact that the man would have to dismount and walk the horse at times during the day. » JiaGai -- Factual abilities aside, this is just a euphamism. -- Red Hare is better, stronger and faster than any other horse around. It was an exceptional horse but I doubt even it can actually run 300 miles in a single day. » Explainer -- In Chinese, Red Hare is a one-thousand-li horse. -- After translation, it becomes three-hundred-mile horse. The Chinese use "a thousand" or "ten thousands" to indicate "many". (Like we use "zillion".) The language may not really mean 1,000 li.
123 Lu Bu bade his guards lead out the horse. It was of a uniform color like glowing-sun red---not a hair of another color. It measured ten spans from head to tail and from hoof to neck eight spans. When it neighed, the sound filled the empyrean and shook the ocean.	» _Master Zhang Liao -- what is a Span? -- Because if it's a equivalent of a hand in the U.K for horse measurement.. Red Hare is TINY? » Keeruu-Hiroshi -- Span -- A span is 10 inches long, so Red hare was 100 inches long and 80 inches high, making him taller then Guan Yu, who is 6'9 » _Master Zhang Liao -- Thanks for that, In that case I rewrite my former post. -- Red Hare was HUGE :) » _anonymous -- post -- i agree with Keeruu-Hiroshi that a span is 10 inches long but Red Hare was shorter than Kuan Yu by 1 inch. 6'8. 6x12+9=81 so Kuan Yu is 81 inches tall. Also, it is said that Red Hare was a thousand mile a day horse not three hundred. Though 300 would probably be more accurate since most horses like that of the Mongols averaged 50 miles a day. » Explainer -- Red Hare is A-Thousand-Li Horse -- In the original text, they use li as the length measurement, not mile. A li is about 0.5 km. A mile is about 3 li. Therefore, a thousand li is 333 miles. But then, "a-thousand-li" is only an abstract term, like "Live ten thousand years, O Emperor!". So the 300 miles here may not mean much. » _Damien_Velari -- For God sakes, where do you people read about this stuff? » _Shige -- RE: Damien -- There's more than one version of this tale, friend ;O) » maneve -- question -- what are the other versions and where could i find them? » ItalianLion -- Red Hare -- That, my friends, is one amazing horse... Red Hare was 8ft 3in long and 6ft 7in tall... Now that doesn't sound like a Mongolian Pony (the breed typically used in China) to me... Where would Dong Zhou get a horse like this? Trade, perhaps? Any ideas? And, about the 300 Mile a day thing....Uh... I don't think so. No horse could do that and live to do it again. Race horses get tired after running a mile long race... I can't imagine a horse doing 300 miles in a day. Three hundred miles is about the same distance as Phoenix, AZ to San Diego, Cali... Perhaps Luo Guanzhong elaborated Red Hare a tiny bit, no? » JiaGai -- As the explainer said, the "300 mile a day" is more a euphamism than literal. -- All it really means is that the horse is stronger, faster and can run farther than any other horse around. » ItalianLion -- Re: JiaGai -- Ah, I see, thanks for explaining that ^_^ Although, I think it'd be awesome to see a horse run 300 miles non-stop, that would be pretty sweet. Any thoughts on the origin of Red Hare though? » Ragnarok -- Origin. -- Chinese horses were relatively small. So the Red Hare was likely from a tribe, or the Mongols. Obviously, it's parents would have to be finely bred too. Red Hare was probably the result of decades of breeding skills, and good horses. » Doozer -- To Ragnarok -- Red Hare couldn't be from the Mongols, because the Mongols traditionally raised ponys, not horses. » Seraph -- Red Hare -- I think that Red Hare was most likely made up. It is possible that it was real, however, I don't think it likely. For example, it makes it's first appearence with Lu Bu, in chapter 3. Then, it lasts all the way to approx. 219-220, still being as fast as it always was. And then when it dies, it is not of old age or exhaustion. So My take on it? Red Hare was not real. But it would be possible to create such a horse after years and years of breeding. It could as a symbol of power, I don't know. And ItalianLion, I think the word you're looking for is exaggerated. » LuBoyan -- History vs. Novel -- Just because it's too fantastic to be true, doesn't mean it does not have some shred of truth. Maybe there was a red horse given to Lu Bu and Luo carried it through the novel to show that Guan Yu was the best of his era. » Shokyo -- Red Hare -- How much is 300 miles? Most of the way across England I would say. My friend's mum breeds and trains horses (and I'm not saying that this makes it absolutely true) and she says there is no way a horse can cover three hundred miles in single day. Seraph, I think, has hit it right on the head with exaggeration. » darkknight -- a span -- is a span really about 10 inches because there are a lot of 8/9 span men in this story and i doubt there are too many 6/7 foot chinese men » Jiankang -- A Span (per Webster.com) -- A Span is actually only 9 inches long. It's the distance from the thumb to the little finger. Since this was old English, I guess that 9 inches was the King's hand span. Anyways, on a second note from Darknight. I'm a child of south (Wu), but people from the north (Wei) are generally taller. The Manchus (and similarly the Koreans for that matter), are much taller than their southern brethren. This may be because they eat noodles instead of rice more. : ) Also, on a third note, for the Han/Shu sympathizers out there, the Koreans live on as the Han countrymen. For the glory of the EMPIRE!!! (Actually, I'm not sure if this is the same Han. Maybe someone out there know for sure.) -Jian Kang » Rahonavis -- Slight Correction -- The Huns, Ghengis Khan, desert homads, and Koreans are for intended purposes considered northerners. Koreans are descedants of the Manchus, while people of Wei were more Huns. I don't think eating noodle or rice has anything to do with height :P but that's only my speculation. However Wu and Shu are both southerners, because the country is divided by the river Zhu Kiang (Pearl River) hence Kiang Bei (North of the River), KiangXi (West of the River), Kiangnan (South), Kiangdung (West). Shu is to the west and south hence the north of Southeast Asia at the time would've been Shu territory; and territories from modern Heinan to Nanjing and down to north Vietnam would be Wu territory. » Jiankang -- Koreans - Han or Manchus? -- Historically, I you're right. They're probably more affiliated with the Manchus. But their country as it's called by themselves is: Han Guo. And they are: Han Guo Ren. I don't know if the Han, at its height, may have had a profound influence on the Korean pennisula. If someone could tell me why Korea's "Han" is the same as the "Han Dynasty"'s "Han". Similarly, people in Chinatowns (Cantonese at least) around the world call themselves: Tang Ren. That means people of the Tang. During the Tang, most of China (and beyond the current map?) was influenced under the rule of the Middle Kingdom. -JKH » ManicManchu -- about red hare -- Red Hare probably wasn't real. Really, who's seen a red horse? anyways, Red Hare must have represented invincability. look at Guan Yu, he killed generals in ONE blow. look at Lu Bu, he can fight 3 people at once. How many other people do you think can do that in this story? However, it may be possible that a horse can ride 300mi. a day. think about it. an average horse can run 25 miles an hour. So,horses can run 25 miles in a hour. now, 25miles in a hour X 24 hours= 600 miles. So, if a horse ran non-stop, it would run 600 miles in 24hrs. or a day. No horse can run non-stop so it would need to rest. halve of 600 is 300, and halve of 24 is 12. So it is possible that Red Hare can run 300 miles a day if it took a rest every hour. » JiaGai -- The Red Hare -- If you're going to try to explain Red Hare in real-world capacity, you have several fundamental misconceptions. First, let's take a human being into consideration. A well-trained track star would have great stamina for running, but only at a comfortable running pace. If that same track star went into a full sprint (say a maximum of roughly 15 mph), things become radically different. Even if he can keep up a pleasant jog for long periods of time, going all out will completely exhaust him in a matter of minutes. The same rings true for a horse. While a horse has greater stamina than even a trained track star, it still has it's limits. Forced to it's fastest running speed (say 25-30 mph), it can still only keep up that pace for a few minutes at a time, making it useless for long-distance travel. An exhausted body does not recover quickly and it will be quite some time before the horse is able to run at that pace again. Red Hare, even though it's far better than any horse around, is limited in this way too. There is no way it could keep up the pace required to literally run 300 miles in a day. The numbers mean to serve symbolically, to show that Red Hare is the finest, strongest, fastest horse to exist during the Three Kingdoms era. That's all it really stands for. » WUuuu -- I Disagree -- I think rather than an exaggeration to prove the point, the horse is meant to be mythical and supernatural and, in the terms of the novel, could actually run that far. Remember, this was written for an audience far more willing to believe mystical, unbelievable things occurred, especially in the past. I think all these exaggerations are meant to be taken literally, as if this was a tall tale. » RoboSSS -- A Span... -- Yeah, a Span is 9 inches, now... I'm wondering how we know how much a Span meant 1,800 years ago. I remember that a Span is used to show how tall some people are in this book and most don't seem to be as short as one might think a person from this era would be. Unless ofcourse they did have abnormally large, ape-like hands like Liu Bei :P » AshanntuMeiLing -- WUuuu u may be wrong -- There could well be such horses capable of running that far and good due to Selective Breeding, were you choose a certain characteristic u want from an animal or plant (in this case, lets say the speed of a horse) and breed it with an animal or plant of the same characteristic (a horse that can run just as fast). You then build it up (selecting and selecting) until the species gets better and better at what u want it to do. (this may have been used to get cows that produced more meat etc.) As it says earlier Red Hare has been finely bred, so maybe selective breeding took place to get this horse. » Yunsung -- Back to the Korean's Han origins... -- I've studied a lot of history in my 15 years, and I have come to this conclusion. Han Guo is a Chinese phrase, as is Han Guo Ren. The literal translation, I believe, is "Northern Kingdom of the Han". Koryo, which grew up after the three Korean kingdoms of Koguryo, Silla, and Paekche united is translatable as "The Northern Kingdom of the Empire". I'm guessing that the Chinese translated Koryo, and came up with Han Guo Ren, as Koryo carried on many of the courtly traditions and customs from Han immigrants. » Drackor -- Red Hare -- First of all, Red Horses are very real, I even have pictures of a few horses I believe could satisfy the description of Red Hare given by LGZ (Most Red Horses I've found are Described as Geldings). Secondly, I have to agree the descriptions of the horses prowess are probably exagerated to show that it is a horse above the rest.
124 Mark ye the steed swift and tireless, see the dust, spurned by his hoofs, rising in clouds, Now it swims the river, anon climbs the hill, rending the purple mist asunder, Scornful it breaks the rein, shakes from its head the jeweled bridle, It is as a fiery dragon descending from the highest heaven.	» Kelpie -- Red Hare -- Ooo, pretty! ^_^ I can see why Lu Bu was so taken by Red Hare now. Makes me want him! lol » RedHare -- Reality -- Actually, you probably wouldn't. Since they had no way of fixing a male horse back then, there was no way to calm a stallion down. Therefore Red Hare was wild, but probably well-trained. Otherwise it wouldn't make a very good war horse. » StratigistKhaRai -- Reality Check -- Lu Bu uses a halberd. I have a halberd and according to my research they are not really long. Red Hare is a damn big horse (FRONTLEGS TO EARS TALLER THAN GUAN YU). Even if you were as strong as Lu Bu, you cant give an effective mounted attack (with a short weapon on Red Hare). » Alagithil -- Whaddya mean? -- Halberds are the longest weapons around. They're basically pikes with an axe-head attached! » RoboSSS -- Well... Even if Lu Bu's halberd was only a few feet long (which I personally doubt)... -- it's not as if he was fighting dwarves or toddlers. I doubt one would have little trouble still slicing an enemies chest, neck and head. And as Lu Bu was an excellent rider, I doubt he'd have much trouble just leaning over slightly to get even more reach out of his weapon. » StormRunner -- Halberds -- Halberds were up to 8 feet in length depending on the height of the wielder. The pike was very similar to spear but shorter and favorable in closer-ranged combat. Lu Bu's strength, a halberd, and Red Hare were actually a mavelous match in my opinion.
124 Lu Bu was delighted with the horse and said, "What return can I hope to make for such a creature?"
126 "What return can I hope for? I came to you out of a sense of what is right," replied Li Su.	» guanping -- always be aware of when people say that, they usually want something
126 Wine was brought in and they drank.
127 "We have seen very little of each other, but I am constantly meeting your honorable father," said Li Su.
129 "You are drunk," said Lu Bu. "My father has been dead for years."	» SkyAnimal -- Yeah, Lu Bu was tough, but he wasn't too bright.
129 "Not so; I spoke of Ding Yuan, the man of the day."
131 Lu Bu started. "Yes, I am with him, but only because I can do no better."	» RoboSSS -- Father -- They keep comparing Ding Yuan as Lu Bu's adopted father, even though Lu Bu apparently thinks he's worthless. He could do no better. It seems that Lu Bu rushed into his relationship with Ding Yuan quicker than the three brothers had... And he makes the same mistake again and a similar one later on. Did he have some family issues that blinded him of the character of other people? Or maybe he just liked pretending to be family towards someone until someone more powerful came along? :| » Shokyo -- It seems logical to me that the father would choose the son -- Being the older and wiser. Or maybe it was Lu Bu seeking a mentor or something like that, and he came to Ding Yuan. Either way, he is an arrogant bastard, and disrespectful (like he cares.). Consequently, he expects everyone and everything to fall before him, just because of his reputation as Lu Bu the Terrible. Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo: They're both brats at heart. » Yunsung -- He's not nearly as stupid as everyone believes. -- I don't think that it was just chance that all his betrayals gained power for him. Reading between the lines, I'd say he's pretty insightful. » chrisdalby -- The true measure of Lu Bu -- He cares not for honour, strength of character or justice. Ding Yuan is one of the best men in the Imperial Court as he stands up for what he believes in. Lu Bu merely betrays him for being old and weak. Bastard. » TsaoWei -- What? -- I understand that he eventually turns into aforementioned greedy megalomaniac, but he doesn't seem terribly evil right now. Has KOEI burned any pictures into your head that you can't get out, even for the first two or three times Lu Bu is mentioned? Or did I miss something proving him evil already? » guanping -- He is evil in the same way Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao is -- he is ambtoius and when the land has collapsed, decides to strike out on his own. Hardly ever actully evil. I shouldn't have just said Liu Bei. Ding Yuan was a minor general and it seems here that Lu Bu was unhappy with him. Now this major general of great fame and ability, Dong Zhou, of who Lu Bu would have heard of as a child, has control of the court and has made clear that he wants Lu Bu on his side. Come on, it has to be a tempting offer » DongDal -- Liu Bei never killed two men who had shown him great trust. -- And then attacked a third. » guanping -- true (leaving Lu Bu aside or I could say he killed one man and Gongus Zan as a possible betrayel) -- he betrayed Cao Cao, unable to harm him. He betrayed Yuan Shao, again no way Liu Bei could harm him. Techniclly betrayed Liu Qi's trust. Betrayed Wu many times over. Betrayed Liu Zhang. Yep his record is much better » TomMurch -- Is Lu Bu EVIL? The Ultimate Question answered... -- Lu Bu was pretty damn ruthless, that much is true. Greedy and ambitious, again check. But EVIL? My definition of EVIL requires a man to use his own initiative, actively plan murder and other EVIL deeds. Lu Bu simply does not have the imagination needed to be, in my books, EVIL. Dong Zhou was easily EVIL, as he abused his power, but Lu Bu is more cunning and treacherous than good old-fashioned EVIL. Hey, I sound like Kaientai. (badly lip-synchronised translation from TAKA Michinoku) FOR WE ARE EVIL!! AH HA HA HA HAAAA! (hand over the mic to Fuanki) INDEED!! Ahem...sorry about that...WWF fan, 2000-2002. It won't happen again. Honest. » guanping -- Cao Cao also abused his power -- doesn't make him evil. » DongDal -- Technically makes him corrupt though. -- Lu Bu - At Xia Pi this can be seen as a betreyal but at not one point did Liu Bei say he would actually help Lu Bu. Whether or nod actually meant the same thing as it did 1800 years ago as it does now, I don't know. Gongsun Zan - Liu Bei had n't much power or resources at the time. Plus he was busy with Lu Bu. Not a betreyal. Yuan Shao - He threatened Liu Bei's life on two different occasions for matters Liu Bei had no control over. He was a free officer and could leave at any time. Where was the betreyal? Liu Qi - He was wasted on women and drink. Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang helped him with state affairs until his death at which point he took over. Liu Zhang - Liu Bei went to Liu Zhang's aid and was willing to fight his war for him. Liu Zhang, in return denies him precious troops and supplies. And then his generals try to kill Liu Bei. Liu Zhang made the first move. Wu - Why should Sun Quan get all of Jing when his troops only did half the work? (in history as well as novel) And TomMurch... 5 SECOND POSE! » guanping -- I admire Mao's planning for the novel. I would say with Cao Cao it was more...needed -- Lu Bu: I view plotting to leave your lord/ally a betrayel. Same with letting an officer get away with insulting in all ways, your ally. Gongus Zan: Yeah he goes with help from his lord(who could have told Liu Bei where to stick that request) and takes over Xu. That is one sure way of not being Zan's vassal Yuan Shao: Liu Bei seems to be a vassal of Yuan Shao to be honest rather then an ally. Liu Bei's brother killed Yuan Shao's officer, that is reason enough to execute back then, then Liu Bei's brother kills another officer and Liu Bei fails in battle. Enough reason again. He went to Liu Biao in diplomacy mission and took an officer of Yuan Shao's with him.(if we go by history, might I suggest a vassal going on diplomatic mission and changing sides is betrayl) Liu Qi: Notice how many times Kongming called Liu Zhang his lord or that Liu Bei served Liu Zhang? About once, twice. Liu Zhang: The man plotted against Liu Zhang from the start. Liu Zhang finds letter saying "hey I'm going to betray Liu Zhong that great civil lord. BWhAHHA" and is supposed to think what exactly? Wu: one moment... history Zhou Yu took all but the bits Cao Ren held against Guan Yu. Also in history, Liu Bei promised to send Guan Yu to Hanzhong but didn't, he broke sevral agreements. Even in the novel he lies to Wu you can add Cao Cao to list of those backstabbed by Liu Bei if you wish » DongDal -- Gotta admit it. He's a good author. -- Lu Bu - I view attacking your ally and taking over his land as a betreyal. Same with killing a man over a horse. Gongsun Zan - There was no opportunity to help Gongsun Zan. He was at Xia Pi for two years. Plus he helped him against Yuan Shao before. Yuan Shao - Wen Chou and Yan Liang were Guan Yu, not Liu Bei. You might also suggest threatening a man's life over an event which he had little to do with was a betreyal. Liu Qi - He was dying at the time. They needed to exert authority or there would be chaos. Liu Zhang - That letter was from Zhang Song after Liu Zhang refused the supplies. Wu - Even in history, Wu didn't deserve all of Jing. Shu did a godd portion of the work and deserved the same rewards. Also this is novel discussion, not history. Cao Cao - Was betrayed after he himself went against the Han. » guanping -- if he included Wu perhaps a bit more, tuned down Shu greatness and praised Wei/Wu a bit more? -- Lu Bu: Ok point taken but Lu Bu betrays Liu Bei once...also he killed Ding Yuan for power Zan: Right, Liu Bei of course turned down the offer of Xu and went home to Zan. He helped Zan out once and for about five minutes... Yuan Shao: but you can see what Yuan Shao thought? Remember Liu Bei ex officer of Cao Cao then "escapes" Cao Cao. Well Yuan Shao was Liu Bei's lord, Tian Feng didn't go defecting Liu Qi: He wasn't at Chi Bi Liu Zhang: no Liu Zhang found the letter before, thus lack of supplies and then closing the gates Wu: Not all but certain parts of Jing that Liu Bei kept. Back to novel... the Suns gave warnings, Shu broke promises, Shu insulted Wu. Cao Cao: Sure like Liu Bei cared for the Han in anyway that didn't mean power to him. What exactly is going against the Han? » DongDal -- Who knows? -- Lu Bu - Sometimes, once is all that is needed. And because it was for power makes it better? Zan - Who else was there to take care of Xu? A few other lords certainly, but none were there. Liu Bei helped out Zan when he was needed, he simply could have killed Zan, gone over to Yuan Shao and have been rewarded. He didn't and he fought with him. Yuan Shao - Liu Bei was a free vassal and could leave at any time. Tian Feng had lived in the north for a long time and his loyalty was to the Yuan clan. Liu Bei's was to the Han. Liu Qi - I thought we were talking about after Chi Bi weren't we? Liu Zhang - No, it went like this. Liu Bei asks for supplies, Liu Zhang refuses, Liu Bei gets annoyed after helping Liu Zhang defend his land and sets to use a ploy against Liu Zhang, Zhang Song hears of ploy and sends letter, letter gets intercepted and Liu Zhang has Zhang Song executed. Wu - In novel, Wu tried to kill Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang while they were still allies. Cao Cao - He cared enough to go against the most powerful lord of the land for it. » guanping -- ah well. I think in some cases Mao just got his dates confused and jumped to wrong conculsion -- Lu Bu: No but Liu Bei sought power for himself yet you defend him. I just felt like clearing up that misconception. Zan: Tao Qin's two sons or whoever got appointed to the post. Or took it over. If he attacked Zan, Zan's own men would have killed him and doubt Yuan Shao would be to trusting. Yuan Shao: right the man would be so dumb as to do that. Why didn't Liu Bei just say I'm leaving? Becuase he was a vassal of Yuan Shao. Liu Bei loyalty was to himself Liu Qi: he had so much free time. But yes you are right. Always weak argument with him but wanted to show a view point Liu Zhang: Liu Bei asks supplies to return to Jing, Liu Zhang having gotten suspcoius over Liu Bei's actions sends less supplies then asked. Liu Zhang then discovers letter and orders Gates closed to Liu Bei. Honestly the letter was from well before( in the novel as well as history I think) Wu: In the novel Zhou Yu was a zombie. I honestly think Mao got dates confused Cao Cao: becuase Yuan Shao had tried to invade him before hand » Tiamatty -- Mao's not great as an historian -- Lu Bu: Lu Bu had some justification in attackin Xia Pi. On the other hand, Zhang Fei had some reason to doubt Lu Bu's honour. Guan Yu didn't trust Lu Bu either. Frankly, it was foolish of Liu Bei to trust Bu as much as he did. Lu Bu had betrayed people before, it was only natural to believe he would do it again - and killing Ding Yuan WAS a betrayal. He served this man, who was loyal to the Han, who treated him like a son - and killed him for his own personal profit. That's a whole lot worse than ANYTHING Liu Bei does. Gongsun Zan: How did he betray Gongsun Zan, exactly? By not abandoning his post to help Zan against Yuan Shao? The two shouldn't have been fighting anyway. Besides, when did Gongsun Zan ask for Liu Bei's help? Yuan Shao: Liu Bei didn't say he was leaving because Yuan Shao would've killed him. He would've believed Bei was going to help Cao Cao (had practically been convinced of it twice already), and would've killed him. Liu Bei was staying with Yuan Shao due to a change of fortune. He never made any pretense of wanting to be a vassal to Shao; it was convenient for the time being. Liu Qi: Liu Qi wasn't supposed to be in command. Liu Bei was supposed to take over Jing after Liu Biao died. That's what Liu Biao himself wanted. Cao Cao: He viewed Cao Cao as a rebel and a traitor to the throne. I can't hink of any occasion where Liu Bei really betrayed Cao; he worked against him in battle, but that's war. And he signed the decree to get rid of Cao Cao, but he never made good on it, and did very little plotting while staying with him. » guanping -- but great writer no doubt -- Lu Bu: adopted him true but treated as a real son? Zan: Xu was not his to take, he was there as a general of Zan's. Maybe he should have asked Zan who he wanted to govern Xu? What makes you ay they shouldn't have been fighting? Unless in the same way Liu Bei and Cao Cao shouldn't have been fighting Yuan Shao: then why did Yuan Shao trust him? A man who was formerly an officer of Cao Cao was always going to be suspect. Espically when his brother had killed two officers of Shao and Liu Bei had lost a battle. Why was Liu Bei given diplomacy mission if Yuan Shao had no reason to trust Liu Bei? Liu Qi: but he turned it down and swore to help the sons. He didn't do that. Cao Cao: Promising to go do something, running away and declaring indepance count as betrayel. » DongDal -- Hell yeah! -- Lu Bu - As far as we can see. Zan - Xu was offered to Liu Bei, not Gongsun Zan. There was Cao Cao, Kong Rong and Yuan Shao in between the two of them so actually getting Xu under Zan's control would have been difficult. Yuan Shao - They had met before I think and had made a good impression on each other. I think Liu Bei was given the mission out of the link between him and Biao. Liu Qi - Hard to actually help the sons when one surrendered to your enemy and the others at death's door. Liu Zhang - What actions had Liu Bei taken to make Liu Zhang suspect him? Cao Cao - Actually he did do the mission he was supposed to do. The governor of the city tried to kill him first. » guanping -- I found out one reason Dong Zhou was hated, and the poor man was in the right -- Lu Bu: Something it says in the novel that implies things had been strained. That and Dong Zhou only treated Lu Bu like a son, never actully adopted Zan: as officer to Zan, Liu Bei's duty was to Zan. Kong Rong would have allowed Liu Bei through to return to his post Yuan Shao: When did the two meet?(historically) in the novel, I doubt Yuan Shao and Liu Bei met personally apart from the breif bit against Dong Zhou. Liu Bei of course fufilled that vital mission rather then defected*rolls eyes* Liu Qi: I thought Qi was capable enough. Just given nothing to do Liu Zhang: Not attacking Zhang Lu is one. He sat there for a year. Then there was the suspcions running through the Shu court about Liu Bei. At that, Liu Bei was viewed as someone going to backstab under Cao Cao, a bad commander at Yuan Shao's camp, a man to be wary off by Liu Biao's court, Wu and Shu's court was wary of him turning on them. What a great reputation this man had! Cao Cao: Why didn't he then return to Xu Chang and complain about the govenor(you once said Lu Bu should do this regarding Zhang Fei) » DongDal -- Really? -- Lu Bu - So since he treated him like a son but didn't actually say it, that makes it alright? Zan - But Kong Rong was soon swallowed up by Cao Cao. He would have had a few ideas about Xu himself. Yuan Shao: In history couldn't they have met up in the Imperial court after the Lu Bu business? Liu Bei was favoured by Cao Cao and Yuan Shao was a very powerful man after all. He had been threatened with death twie, anybody in his position would have been the same. Liu Qi - He was seriously ill after Chi Bi. There wasn't a lot he could do. Liu Zhang - He was asked to defend under Liu Zhang. Not attack Zhang Lu. Plus he really couldn't do much at Liu Biaao's court because of the Cai's. Cao Cao - If Liu Bei had gone any further he would have died. If he went around he would have been pursued. Not a lot of choice in the matter. » guanping -- Cao Yang(guy forced hired) suggested that the "great" Han emporers be put back to seven -- Lu Bu: Never said it did. Just there was a slight diffrence... if Lu Bu thought he could be heir... Zan: Then Liu Bei should have turned down the offer and returned to Zan Yuan Shao: How? Liu Bei was in the north and would have met him only in battles that erupted between Zan and Shao. Novel... I'm sure most would have done the same or gone and proved thier loyalty. Liu Qi: Really? He seems to have been well but turned to vice after not being used Liu Zhang: actully it was to destroy Zhang Lu I thought(might got history and novel confused.) The Cai's where not the only ones who pointed out that Liu Bei's loyalty was in doubt. Cao Cao: Why not withdraw or camp and send word to Cao Cao? » DongDal -- Oh right. -- Lu Bu - Why should he be heir? Dong Zhou had children (I'm guessing) Zan - Why should he? The offer was to him, not Zan, like I said there were other lords in between Xu and Zan so going between them would have been a difficulty. Yuan Shao - Yuan Shao was in the north too. Wasn't their an obligation between the lords to go to the court once a year? Liu Qi - He was pretty wrecked just after Chi Bi. It would seem he was steeped in vice for quite a while. Liu Zhang - Perhaps there was no real opportunities. Hanzhon was an easily defensible position. Cao Cao - Because he'd be pursued regardless. » guanping -- some burial tradition that the late Han emps(like Huan) had broken so Dong Zhou made seven again -- Lu Bu: Dong Min was his eldest son. Not sure if he had other another son. The point is Lu Bu was not going to be vassal for all his life...if he thought he would gain command of Dong Zhou's men then he would have waited. Or if he thought Dong Zhou wouldn't kill him first Zan: Liu Bei should have turned it down then and gone home. Tao Qin can fend for himself. Yuan Shao: how many do you think obeyed that? All men also supposed to be trained in milatry service for two years...also doesn't mean Yuan Shao would have met a minor offical like Liu Bei Liu Qi: He was considered weak around the time... maybe already viced Liu Zhang: Not so much from Liu Zhang's side. Oh a funny thing to do with Liu Bei/Liu Zhang/Sun Quan. Sun Quan allowed Liu Bei to take Yi and then said he wanted to take over Liu Zhang's lands, would Liu Bei like to join in? Liu Bei said he would never attack a family member and would not allow others to do so. Sun Quan, to keep the alliance intact, abandonded the plans. How do you think Wu felt when Liu Bei attacked Liu Zhang? Cao Cao: Liu Bei had two officers of Cao Cao with him and his own army...he could hold out. » DongDal -- Ah. -- Lu Bu - After having his way with Dong Zhou's favourite concubine, that's a fair assumption. Zan - He was dying. And if he could fend for himself then why did he need Liu Bei's help in the first place? Yuan Shao - Liu Bei was the Imperial Uncle though. Wouldn't have that gave him extra rank and title. Plus the lords might have obeyed in order to see the rest of their rivals and see if there were any moves they could make. Liu Qi - Probably already dying then. Liu Zhang - Pretty damn annoyed I'll bet. It meant they couldn't try to get into the Jing province with a good excuse. And perhaps Zhang Lu had good defenses set up or Liu Zhang might have attacked him earlier. Cao Cao - For how long until Cao Cao's officers rebelled or reinforcment were brought in? » guanping -- there was something like 14 emps in that temple... not seven -- Lu Bu: handmaid is what you mean I belive. Liu Bei: at the same point Yuan Shao was pretty much fighting Zan... by that time the visit court every year tradtion had gone. Um with emporer's under people's control (it went on before Emporer Huan's time) no lords did not go for fear of death. Liu Qi: very much alive but perhaps on his vices Liu Zhang: Don't think he had a good commander to attack. Zhang Ren and Yan Yan made good generals, not commanders. Liu Bei was a milatry commander. Actully Wu had a good enough escuse for some of Jing that they only got by invading... Cao Cao: Liu Bei was thier commander and not that long... Cao Cao would just need to send messanger to pull the Governer back in line but a small force would be enough » DongDal -- And I have no idea what you're talking about... -- Lu Bu - Tamata, tomato. Yuan Shao - Probably heard about his reputation for being a good man I suppose. Liu Qi - They weren't even running Jing at that time. It was under Cao Cao at the time. When they did capture Jing Liu Qi was seriously ill. Liu Zhang - True, but he wasn't the best military commander was he? Wu got all of Jing by invading. Cao Cao - The general's loyalty was still to Cao Cao, by the time they figured out what was happening they would have left. They might have even taken several troops with them. » guanping -- ah well... it upset some people -- Lu Bu: not really Yuan Shao: possble around time he took Liu Bei in... more reputation as a commander. Imperial Uncle bit also helped no doubt Liu Qi: you mean where handed Jing back? I'll take your word for it Liu Zhang: Liu Bei best commander that he could get.Wu invaded Jing and took it off Cao Ren then gave some to Liu Bei of which he could keep and rest on loan. Cao Cao: Cao Cao had made Liu Bei thier commander, they leave him then they risk being executed » DongDal -- Oh, I'll keep it in mind. -- Lu Bu - What is the difference then? Yuan Shao - Of course. It also helped Yuan Shao's claim of being rightousness. Liu Qi - Sorry, I thought you meant when Liu Bei had to beat the 4 governors. Liu Zhang - Wonder why they lent him it. There wasn't all that much in it for them. Cao Cao - They stay with Liu Bei, they risk being executed for betraying Cao Cao. » guanping -- its the little things -- Lu Bu: handmaids where more like servants we see today, though no doubt there was some sort of *wink wink* so just like today. Concuibnes did nothing more then look pretty and open thier legs Yuan Shao: probably why he was ally not vassal then. Politics Liu Qi: no problem Liu Zhang: to attract men of talent at first and then becuase they lacked a milatry commander to take it back. Also Wei kept them busy for awhile. Seems Liu Bei actully plotted against Wu and Liu Zhang as soon as he took Yi Cao Cao: if he declared indepedance then yes they would no choice but to run » DongDal -- That counts. -- Lu Bu - If that's the case then it makes you wonder what Dong Zhou got his knickers in a twist about it. Yuan Shao - It always is. Liu Zhang - Wouldn't have Lu Su have done something? Cao Cao - Or he could send them a secret message telling them to kill him thus saving some bother. » guanping -- I would compare Cao Cao to Duke Zhou -- Lu Bu: he got suspcois becuase of the handmaid thing. Not sure why... he was really sorry afterwards... Liu Zhang: Did Lu Su know? I don't think he did Cao Cao: Liu Bei sigged the Girdle Decree so that is betrayel » DongDal -- Do you constantly have to bring up stuff I don't know about? -- Lu Bu - Perhaps he thought that if Lu Bu could betray him over that he could betray him over something else. Liu Zhang - During the invasion of Yi. If Wu were worried about an attack from Liu Bei, they could have attacked him. Cao Cao - The edict was basically an order from the Emperor. He either obeys the Emperor and stays loyal to the Han or he obeys Cao Cao and betrays the Han. He chose the former. » guanping -- Yes. Duke Zhou was famous for upholding some dynasty rather then take over himself -- Lu Bu: possible but I find it doubtful Liu Zhang: Alliance was worsened by Liu Bei's refusal then attack on Yi but it was forgiven. They had no idea that Liu Bei plotted against them. Cao Cao: Point. Something I learnt today, Dong Cheng and the other Girdle Decree guys didn't actully trust Liu Bei. Intresting no? » DongDal -- Oh him. -- Lu Bu - Would suit Dong Zhou if he was as paranoid as other tyrants. Liu Zhang - And vice versa. Cao Cao - So why did they enlist him if they didn't trust him? » guanping -- Xian was quite talented wasn't he? -- Lu Bu: True. Liu Zhang: Wu did not plot to take over Liu Bei's land till much later Cao Cao: they needed another for good luck? They probably needed some milatry man » DongDal -- We'll never know as he was never given a chance to shine. -- Liu Zhang - Right... We can believe that. Cao Cao - So why not Ma Teng? » guanping -- Ah well -- Liu Zhang: you would be suprised what they admit in thier own stuff. Plot on Liu Zhang, plot on Wu and Yi... Wu has quite detailed stuff. But I'll change it to: as far as we know, Wu had no plot regarding Liu Bei's land till later. Cao Cao: Ma Teng? Well Ma Teng had revolted against the Han only a few years back, he had no real loyalty. He turned up to fight Li Jue over a quarrel regarding payment. If anything he would be more loyal to Cao Cao himself when war was declared on Yuan Shao, killer of Ma Teng's friend Gongus Zan.(we going by history here right? Not even sure if Ma Teng was at the capital either) » DongDal -- ... -- Liu Zhang - And yet they were the first to invade Jing. Cao Cao - Oh. Couldn't they have done it with Yuan Shao before the war? » guanping -- we rule -- Liu Zhang: only when it was under Liu Biao(personal grudge prhaps) or Cao Cao. When they took Jing from Liu Bei, the alliance had collapsed and Wu can claim to have been extremly provoked(Can we avoid issue of Jingzhou for now?) Cao Cao: distance. When they sent Ma Chao and Pang De as an ally army against the Yuan's it was partly to secure peace between Wei and Ma Teng » DongDal -- Of course. Only I ruleth the most. -- Liu Zhang - Ok. I'm wondering how we got from Liu Zhang to Jing anyway. Not too mention all the other points we've debated about. Cao Cao - Oh yeah. A pity that there wasn't that many other commanders who hadn't that much connection to Cao Cao about. Sun Ce might have been an option if not the distance. » guanping -- *cry* -- Liu Zhang: it happens Ma Teng: Cao Cao would have been careful to ensure they couldn't. Besides I belive Sun Ce's and Cao Cao's lands where next to each other in some odd way » DongDal -- They were connected by Xia Pi I believe.
132 "Sir, your talent is higher than the heavens, deeper than the seas. Who in all the world does not bow before your name? Fame and riches and honors are yours for the taking. And you say you can do no better than remain a subordinate!"	» Rahonavis -- Fool -- As one can see here Lu Bu is a witless fool who falls for presents and praises. Of course Lu Bu's ambition and ego is what gets him into situations. » guanping -- He is slightly intoxicated I think -- Li Su was also one of those who could charm the pants of anyone and was doing so here. Anyone would have their ego boosted with Li Su doing it » SNDiablos -- LOL. Put it this way... -- What would you say if an old friend of your came up to you and started praising you, offering execellent gifts, making you feel better about you situation, and then offers you a solution: what would you say. Lu Bu is smart but like most us tend to fall for someone praising their talents.
132 "If I could only find a master to serve," said Lu Bu.
134 "The clever bird chooses the branch whereon to perch; the wise servant selects the master to serve. Seize the chance when it comes, for repentance ever comes too late."
134 "Now you are in the government. Who think you is really the bravest of all?", asked Lu Bu.
136 "I despise the whole lot except Dong Zhuo. He is one who respects wisdom and reveres scholarship; he is discriminating in his rewards and punishments. Surely he is destined to be a really great man."	» Reboot -- lol -- That's one heck of a gloss-over! » SNDiablos -- not really. he was a great man... -- just extremely tyranical and evil and stupid, but he did respect wisdom to a certain extent, and he also appreciated strength.
136 Lu Bu said, "I wish that I could serve him, but there is no way, I fear."
137 Then Li Su produced his pearls and gold and the jeweled belt and laid them out before his host.
138 "What is this? What does it mean?" said Lu Bu.
139 "Send away the attendants," requested Li Su. And he went on, "Dong Zhuo has long respected your bravery and sent these by my hand. Red Hare was also from him."
140 "But, if he loves me like this, what can I do in return?"
142 Li Su said, "If a stupid fellow like me can be a general in the Imperial Tiger Army, it is impossible to say what honors await you."	» Diabolos -- whatever -- Stupid, my butt. Lu Bu's the one who could use an I.Q. boost » guanping -- Lu Bu was not stupid -- plus Li Su was using flattery..... you know the phrase flattery gets you everywhere. well thats whats happning here » Doozer -- Lu Bu -- Only a fool can be swayed by flattery. » MasterLiang -- Or an intelligent person who is easily flattered. » BraveZuMao -- Cao Cao (more than others) gets flattered by his advisors. -- I think it is Guo Jia who outlines his ten strengths. He is obviously very pleased by this analysis and praises Guo Jia in return. » WuTugu -- hmmm, many people like being flattered... -- It's a nice way to feel your desires validated. Like Lu Bu, he was no fool, but he got flattered because of what Li Su said.
142 "I am sorry I can offer him no service worth mentioning."
144 Li Su said, "There is one service you can do, and an extremely easy one to perform; but you would not render that."	» StormRunner -- Extremely Easy -- Hisssss Li Su is such a snake.
145 Lu Bu pondered long in silence, then he said, "I might slay Ding Yuan and bring over his soldiers to Dong Zhuo's side. What think you of that?"	» SkyAnimal -- Li Su -- The power of rhetoric and an advisor that can use it. Amazing how he can convince a strong man to do something. Course, this is hearsay, but if this is the gist of what transpired between the two, that's still pretty impressive. » LiaoHua -- Betrayal -- All it takes is a bribe and a conversation to kill his master. I wouldn't want him to serve me » StormRunner -- Lu Bu's betrayal seems to be the product of youthful naivety. -- He has obviously lacked a real father-figure in his life and perhaps he thought he might find that in Dong Zhuo. The riches he was given were also a sign of what he truly wanted... power. I think many of us would have defected in his position. » zhenluo -- 0 -- Ding Yuan was pretty much Lu Bu's surrogate father, and for Lu Bu to be able to murder him for the sake of Dong Zhuo's promise shows his inherent character flaw. The guy's superficial, and he seems to be more excited about the horse than Li Su's promise of power anyways. » guanping -- its more power really -- I think it is a way of making such a specail horse come to the fore. Lu Bu switched sides for power » DongDal -- Still no excuse for killing your surrogate father. » guanping -- Lu Bu was the equivlent to a servant of Ding Yuan but with rank -- no escuse to kill people but it happens for worse reasons » DongDal -- A horse and a sex slave. -- Yep. Lots of worse reasons. » guanping -- actully I was referring to power -- the sex slave was not part of the deal and you really love that horse don't you? » DongDal -- As much as you love. -- The image of Zhao Yun being a women. » guanping -- ouch -- I wish I was right next to Liu Bei at Chang Ban... » DongDal -- Why? » guanping -- guess -- Exciting battle to watch aside » DongDal -- Because you like the constant threat of a friggin' huge army? » guanping -- no, so I could kill him and thus bring an end to the choas. -- Or settle it for just two kingdoms » SNDiablos -- -great- -- i and i thought i had problems with Dongdal By the way dongdal GIVE IT UP » DongDal -- Erm let's see -- NO! ;p
145 "If you would do that, there could be no greater service. But such a thing must be done quickly."
146 And Lu Bu promised his friend that he would do the deed and come over on the morrow.
147 So Li Su took his leave. That very night, at the second watch, Lu Bu entered, sword in hand, into his master's tent. He found Ding Yuan reading by the light of a solitary candle.
148 Seeing who came in, Ding Yuan said, "My son, what is afoot?"
149 "I am a bold hero," said Lu Bu. "Do not think I am willing to be a son of yours!"
150 "Why this change, Lu Bu?"
152 As a reply Lu Bu made one cut, and Ding Yuan's head fell to the earth.	» SleepingDragon -- Wow -- I didnt know Lu Bu was such a demon. I always thought that, though he possessed sick mad skills, he would have been a little more human. I mean, sure, the red hare was a kick butt horse and that was a lotta money, but please...did he have to kill his poor daddy? » JiaGai -- Lu Bu -- Lu Bu was very ambitious and that in turn, made him somewhat self-serving and opportunistic. He'll repeat this pattern of behavior later on. » guanping -- hehehe, I think Lu Bu had been wanting to kill him for a long time... -- or he wouldn't have been so willing, I feel » Creslin -- He did after all say that he could "do no better" than Ding. » fallon -- do no better -- it would seem to me that the only reason Lu Bu was with Ding was because Ding was the only one who noticed him from wherever, likeley the village mentioned earlier, and Lu Bu did not care one iota about him except for the fact that he was helping him with his ambition. the title adopted son meant nothing to him except a way to advance, so when offered a better chance and all the entrapments, it was nothing to Lu Bu to kill Ding, who he never really considered his father. » SNDiablos -- i agree with fallon here... -- plus he even said earlier that and i will quote it "You are mistaken my father has been dead for years." this proves he never thought of ding as a parent or family for that matter
153 Then Lu Bu called the attendants and said, "He was an unjust man, and I have slain him. Let those who back me stay. The others may depart."
154 Most ran away. Next day, with the head of the murdered man as his gift, Lu Bu betook himself to Li Su, who led him to Dong Zhuo. Dong Zhuo received him with a warm welcome and had wine set before him.	» WuMing -- Running away -- Out of context, this would seem that the soldiers weren't buying Lu Bu's rhetoric. But if you take in the realistic situation of it, it raises another possibility. Most of these soldiers are just peasants drafted in from the local villages and marched out to battle, with maybe a handful of veteran soldiers. Lu Bu has just given these peasants a reason to leave, and return to their homes and families, while the veteran soldiers stayed with the army.
154 "Your coming is welcome as the gentle dew to the parched grass," said Dong Zhuo.
156 Lu Bu made Dong Zhuo seat himself and then made an obeisance, saying, "Pray let me bow to you as my adopted father!"	» _Sam B. -- lol -- How many fathers has Lu Bu Had? I would rather die an ugly death rather than be a son to Dong Zhuo. Was Lu Bu a manipulator? » _Shadow -- Lu Bu seems like a man searching for a purpose in life, and for a worthy master... -- and as far as it goes for wanting to serve Dong Zhuo...well he must have had a little too much to drink...that I admit was rather stupid of him (Lu Bu ownz in DW3 if you know how to use him though) » _Wu Han Tian -- the real Lu Bu -- Lu Bu is strong, yes, but he's politically inept. He is driven by power and passion, not strategy. He knows only of Dong Zhuo what Li Su told him, and it was enough for him to know that Li Su considers him a strong man to convert so his side. I'm not sure where your anti Dong Zhuo sentiments come from (except perhaps from chp 1, or possibly from play too many Koei games), but quite frankly I'd have to say Dong Zhuo does hold the most cards right now, and that's all Lu Bu really wants in a master. » _Deruki -- Dong Zhuo -- Aside from playing too many Koei games, Dong Zhuo sort of proves himself to be a little insane here, he doesn't seem to have any real reason to depose the current emperor. He comes off as just what Ding Yuan says, a rebel. » _anonymous -- Dong's Motives -- Maybe it's just me, but I thought it implied an attraction to the prince when Dong Zhuo first met him, almost sexual. It's also possible that he feels he can have even more power over an emperor who got their throne through his machinations. » _TheNovak -- Well, that's *possible*, but I kinda doubt it. -- If you remember, the Emporer was acting like a coward (not that I blame him) by not wanting to reveal himself to Cui Yi, and then by panicking when Dong Zhuo rode up with his army. The Prince of Chenliu, however, was pretty bold by comparison, which impressed Dong-o. So, having the power to control the emporer and a pretty judgemental personality, Dong decided to replace Xian with Chenliu. » moogles -- post -- I think Zhuo's choice to remove the child emperor is essentially the continuation of an ongoing theme in the novel so far. People who rush to action, or fail to listen and carefully consider all advice, make bad choices for all and, eventually, die unpleasent deaths. Of course seeing this as merely a theme of the book so far goes into the realm of just how much did the author slant the writing of the book due to personal ideals or just for the purpose of better storytelling. » _Darklord -- post -- U people can't forget how corrupted these times were! the only reason for betrayal was because everyone was looking out for themselves and so when a larger army came by to attack u wat would u do! i myself would stay with the lord i pledge my gratitude but for someone like Lu Bu u think that someone with that much rage and was just given so many presents and gifts that they would not join the other side. If anything it is Dong Zhuo whu is the manipulator. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Dong Zhuo -- My anti Dong Zhou sentiments come in where he comes in as a rude SOB. It's just my morals, I dislike rude people, this book is mostly pro Shu and thats probably where I got my Pro-Shu from sooooooooo, yeah I'll stop babbleing now. » HeroOfChaos -- I really hate Dong Zhuo because I personnaly think he is the only true villain in this book. -- Also he has no good inside of him and despises everyone. » StormRunner -- Part of ROTK's beauty is that frequent lack of a black and white/good and evil struggle. -- Things aren't as simple as villains and heroes. The struggle was between several people who sought the same thing for different reasons. But through ROTK's interpretation, the meanest SOB in this story would not be Dong Zhuo.
156 Dong Zhuo gave his newly won ally gold armor and silken robes and spread the feast of welcome. They then separated.	» JiaGai -- More folktale about Lu Bu -- http://3kingdoms.tripod.com/learn.html
158 Thence Dong Zhuo's power and influence increased rapidly. He gave the lordship of Hu (an ancient state) and the rank Commander of the Left Army to his brother Dong Min. He appointed Lu Bu Lord of Luoyang, Commander of Capital District, and Cavalry Commander. Dong Zhuo made himself Minister of Works, Grand Commander, and Commander of the Front Army.	» iamnick -- how? -- dong zhuo was a gov. of Hedong during the yellow turban rebellion, then the eunuchs helped him to become imperial protecter of xizhou. From this, how did he get into a postion to promote his brother, Lu Bu, and himself to some of the highest ranks? Also, he wasn't in any way related to empress Dong was he? » JiaGai -- Dong Zhuo -- I doubt he was related to Empress Dong or he probably would have been even more powerful than he initially was. However, he gained that power because he was now in custody of the Emperor. Handy thing to have when you want to grant yourself lofty and prestigious titles.
158 The adviser Li Ru never ceased from urging him to carry out the design of deposing the young Emperor.
160 The now all-powerful Dong Zhuo prepared a banquet in the capital at which all the officers of state were guests. He also bade Lu Bu post a company of armed men right and left ready for action. The feast began and several courses were served with nothing to distinguish that banquet from any other.
160 Then suddenly the host arose and drew his sword, saying, "He who is above us being weak and irresolute is unfit for the duties of his high place. Wherefore I, as of old did Yi Yin and Huo Guang, will set aside this Emperor giving him the title of Prince of Hongnong, and I will place on the throne the present Prince of Chenliu. And those who do not support me will suffer death."
162 Fear seized them in its grip and they were silent, all but Yuan Shao who said, "The Emperor was innocent of any fault, and to set him aside in favor of a commoner was rebellion and nothing else!"	» Solace -- Whatever happened to Yuan Shao? -- At this point he's one of the greatest heroes in the story! In the days ahead he should have behaved more like this. Whoever said that with age comes wisdom? » RoboSSS -- Maybe... he lost confidence in himself... -- and just relied on his advisors to think for him. Maybe... » HeroOfChaos -- About Yuan Shao -- I think that it was actually the contrary of what u said RoboSSS, in my opinion he became TOO confident.
163 "The empire is in my hands!" cried Dong Zhuo. "When I choose to do this thing, who will dare to say nay? Think you my sword lacks an edge?"	» guanping -- the empire keeps changing hands
164 "If your sword is sharp, mine is never blunt!" said Yuan Shao as his sword flashed out of the sheath.	» LordYuanShao -- Now I understand why Koei treats Yuan Shao like a Hero in DW. He is a true Hero. -- I think that this part of the history is much more interesting that all that conflicts between the 3 Kingdoms. The real action and adventure is here... from the Later Han Period to Guan Du Battle!
164 The two men stood face to face amid the feasters.
165 When Ding Yuan by treacherous murder died, The loss was great to Yuan Shao's side.
167 The fate of Yuan Shao will be disclosed in later chapters.	» _anonymous -- I think there's a pattern with the end of these chapters... -- It's like they WANT us to keep reading or something! =) » _fengxiao -- duh have you ever relized how interresting this is -- i would want to read even more of course i have heard of this story for a while now just have never got up to it to read the book. » drunkmastrZhangFei -- Never get bored -- Never got bored ever by reading this book, it's sad in a way, and the Irony kills me. » Ultima -- Lol -- I know what you mean I just get so into this and plus reading other people's notes I just can't plain understand them!!! They know so much plus it's hard understanding all these weird sayings » LiaoHua -- CliffHangers -- Books even to this day use cliffhangers to keep people reading them. » DongDal -- True -- Harry Potter for example.

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